The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

All things Desktop Dungeons

The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

Postby Lujo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:23 pm

So I've been using the wall destroying guitar nonsense to get the few completion runs I've been missing on the labyrinth. It works less well than the whole "cramped map and Rex chasing you is the main hazard" would suggest.

First thing - the way the trophy collecting thing works didn't make it much less tricky. If you kill Rex first, you have to kill the other guy without the gold from Rexes trophy which is probably harder than killing the other guy first and then tackling Rex. My point of view might be messed up because of the guitar business, but there's truth in there somewhere, and support for the way things work currently.

However - that place is actually pretty hard even with the Guitar. Or playing maps without walls is somehow tricky because it's such an alien way of playing that it messes up your resource management drilled-in instincts. With free roaming power I tend to waste a lot of exploration, and I'm beginning to think the guitar could stay the way it is but have an extraorbitant prep cost. It'd do a world of good for making god tutorial videos as it cuts down on things you have to do that distract from showing gods off. And on a very difficult runs, the fact that you have to prep the guitar instead of something worthwhile is actually quite a tradeoff.

Not saying the guitar isn't silly, but if they made it cost as much as the fabulous treasure to prep, or even twice more, it makes for a nice WTF/sandbox mode kind of thing. Won't be sad to see it go, just saying.

With that out of the way - tackling the place with the gorgon and the vampire, with the guitar, took me two tries and was rather tricky even on the successful attempts. You may say - boo hoo, a vet's complaining about not being able to demolish something without thinking. But the thing is - it's the most cramped map out there, hard as hell for plenty of folks because it's cramped, and the guitar ATM works exactly as a no clip cheat. Yet the place gave my vampire and gorgon fits. And I wasn't badgehunting or going PQI or imposing any challenges on myself.

If they remove the guitar as such - what WILL the Gorgon and Vampire attempts look like? I've done VGT with both, so I sort of know my way around them. Has anyone else done it? The Regular way? With how much scumming? I know the Gorgon, especially a binlor gorgon, can destroy any cramped map, and the Vampire is immune to poison so at least snakes are good fodder, but is there something about that place other than the crampednes which makes it hard?

Is Vampire the only real trickshot in there? Could it be fixed by adding "free" bloodpools? Any need for it? Maybe I'm not looking at it right, but I'm not sure how I'd go about it without the cheap guitar gimmick...
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

Postby FDru on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:41 pm

Labyrinth forces you to waste so much exploration as it is... however with the walls it basically denies you from having a good amount of popcorn as well. Though there is a sort of direction to where you're going when the walls are present, that I could see why you might have a problem when they aren't.

Anyway, I'm basically fine with Labyrinth's difficulty at this point. If the monster classes have trouble with it, that's fine since they are end-game classes and excessive preps should always be available to players who've unlocked them.

Shifting Passages, on the other hand, can die in a fire.
User avatar
FDru
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:41 am

Re: The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

Postby gjaustin on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:43 pm

The Gorgon starts with ENDISWAL, so prepping the guitar should actually make the dungeon harder.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

Postby Lujo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:56 pm

FDru wrote:Shifting Passages, on the other hand, can die in a fire.


I lol'd out loud. The idea of doing that place faithless has me sharing the sentiment.

As for the excessive preps - I see what you mean, but I've HAD excessive preps on both runs AND no walls, and it was still tricky as hell. I'm not saying monster races need pampering, but there's a distinction between hard and murderous.

And playing without walls is actually harder in some way than playing with them, it's true. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

gjaustin wrote:The Gorgon starts with ENDISWAL, so prepping the guitar should actually make the dungeon harder.


It occured to me too, but then again, you still get walls from stoning stuff and a few subdungeons so some functionality is kept, yet you don't waste exploration mana on actual exploration so it kind of evens out. With no walls to mess up your movement, you still get a free convertible glyph which can be useful in a variety of ways...

And playing someone with poison strike and free roam is broken by default - IF crampedness is supposed to be a big factor in a map. If it's still hard then there could be an overlooked problem there, potentially with monster composition.

Or I may be immagining things, it's possible. Half-Dragon is probably hurt more by the lack of walls than anyone else, too.

Anyone got 100% completion? Anyone else try the guitar there? How about Shifting Passages? Or Doubledoom and Grimm's Grotto? It's a nice way to give the general monster composition a stress test, or so it seems...

Any idea if a broken guitar with a huge prep cost would actually break some place beyond belief? Because you can actually do much the same thing with binlor for more benefits and without losing the inventory slot/item prep. And if you destroy walls in some places the blinking ar**holes and the cowardly bas****s become a lot more dangerous in the long run. There's a chance the thing isn't in fact as broken as it seems, as strange as that sounds...

Immagine if it gave everything blink insead of cowardly? Blinking vampires? Really?
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

Postby Blovski on Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:41 pm

I have a regular-way Gorgon win on Labyrinth, and a purist Gorgon win on Shifting Passages. Think she's dead easy on a guitarless Labyrinth compared to most classes (since you're just chipping paths as you go). The Binlorgon will flatten that dungeon. Don't think it needs to be easier for her at all.

Also, I don't think I have the titan guitar... is it a more-expensive-version reward?
Blovski
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

Postby Lujo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:10 pm

You can find it in a western subdungeon and locker it (it's someone's more-expensive-version reward not a general one).
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

Postby gjaustin on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:30 pm

Blovski wrote:I have a regular-way Gorgon win on Labyrinth, and a purist Gorgon win on Shifting Passages. Think she's dead easy on a guitarless Labyrinth compared to most classes (since you're just chipping paths as you go). The Binlorgon will flatten that dungeon. Don't think it needs to be easier for her at all.

Also, I don't think I have the titan guitar... is it a more-expensive-version reward?


Yeah, back when we were doing annotated runs, mine was Purist Gorgon on Labyrinth.

My first several kills involved stacking physical resist by destroying walls. The Gorgon is built around getting high level kills very early, but without those walls she can't survive a hit.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

Postby Lujo on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:37 am

Ok, so the Gorgon can do it. What about vampire?
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

Postby gjaustin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:43 pm

For the Vampire, I think you just need to hope that you find PISORF or ENDISWAL early on.

On the other hand, if you're not trying to do Purist then prepping a Bear Mace should solve most of your problems.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: The Labyrinth, trickshots, completion and you

Postby booooooze on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:04 pm

pssht. Purist.

I'm sick of BM gold, so I tried it. Prepped a bear mace, but got ENDISWAL anyway. Straightforward.
booooooze
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:36 am


Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests