Beta update: screw you, monks

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Beta update: screw you, monks

Postby GoatBot on Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:33 am

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Re: Beta update: screw you, monks

Postby bla0815 on Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:00 pm

Yay for the saturday afternoon updates!
Got to try the monk changes, but going orc seems to be very obvious now :/
Lifesteal piety sounds very awesome however! Also the adjusted costs for initial/repeating boons.
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Re: Beta update: screw you, monks

Postby Galefury on Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:48 pm

I'm really not liking the new GG piety costs. Cleansing sucked before (using a potion to heal poison/burn costs 10 piety and also heals you), now it sucks more. Absolution wasn't worth it before, converting to another god and killing the enemies for exp and piety is simply better (and sanctify for GG piety and exp was sometimes even better than that). Absolution is only useful if you cant convert. Good enough I guess, but why the stacking piety cost for these two already underpowered boons?

Sanctify now gets you a total of 12 extra piety. After that you have to pay piety to be allowed to take out low level enemies. After a while the cost becomes higher than taking the actual penalty. Also you pretty much have to chose between enlightenment and everything else. With potion conversion giving only 2 piety and the sanctify change there barely is enough piety in the game to get enlightenment, so if you actually do get it you cant use potions afterwards. And the removed exp from low level enemies (sanctify change again) means worshiping GG for humility isn't worth it anymore either.

GG was just way more fun before. He doesn't let me do anything. I cant kill who I want, I cant drink potions, I cant use some glyphs, and I don't really get anything for it. Would not worship again, he's worse than old TT. Taking humility and maybe one heal, then converting asap seems like the only useful thing to do with him now.

I didn't try the other gods yet, I hope they are still useful.

The monk change seems fine. Harsh nerf, but monk still seems viable and might even still be powerful in some situations (or with a tri-sword). Going human was obvious before, going orc is obvious now. So no change there. I just did the first monk challenge quest as an orc and it wasn't that hard (as expected of a normal dungeon). Mostly GG annoyed the hell out of me, monk was fine.
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Re: Beta update: screw you, monks

Postby TigerKnee on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:39 pm

Does Monk change have any ramification other than "Use Orcs instead of humans"? I'm not good enough at the math to test it out.

I don't know if Monk should be nerfed though... in a sense After all, the class has an in-built weakness to enemies who can permenently reduce your stats through combat. And guess how many of those are in the harder dungeons. In the original Alpha the only weakeners were in one dungeon: Snake Pit. Every single other enemy in that dungeon was extremely easy to kill though.

Also Mystera Annur seems... uh, as overnerfed as GG. Mana boon has scaling piety cost which prevents it from going into overdrive while the magic resistance penalty was increased. Scaling piety seems like a good fix for 50 mana Paladins but why increase the magic resistance penalty? It already wasn't really being used by Fireball casters and still does nothing to Cydsteppers
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Re: Beta update: screw you, monks

Postby fall_ark on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:09 pm

I've played and loved Orc Monks before the update. Maybe I'm just stupid, but it was very fun (often with HP for ATK preparation though). Would give it a go tomorrow to see how things work now.

Even if the Monk change stays, I hope we do get another melee class with lowered ATK bonus. It's.... just meant to be.

-----------------

On a side note, I just saw an Yin-Yang subdungeon while there's no ENDISWAL glyph on the map (no WONAFYT either, but seriously who cares about that guy?). Could this be....tuned down a bit? I'm fine with the money/gold one that requires ENDISWAL, but the YinYang subdungeon is so rare to encounter in the first place, that making it an impossible situation is just harsh.
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Re: Beta update: screw you, monks

Postby Galefury on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:23 pm

Monk math, comparing old human monk, new orc monk, and a non-damage race in a class that doesn't affect damage (lets say a halfling fighter):

level 5, 2 converted glyphs, 2 attack powerups, no other items (standard midgame):
old damage (human): 25 * (0.5+0.4) = 25*0.9 = 22.5 = 22 after rounding down
new damage (orc): (10 +1+2) * (1+0.2) = 13*1.2 = 15.6 = 15 after rounding down
baseline: 25 * 1.2 = 30 and 2 health potions for a halfling

level 5, 4 converted glyphs, 2 attack powerups, trog's sword (trog midgame):
old damage (human): (25 + 10) * (0.5 + 0.6) = 35*1.1 = 38.5 = 38
new damage (orc): (10 + 10 + 1+2+3+4) * (1 + 0.2) = 30*1.2= 36
baseline: 35*1.2 = 42 and 4 potions

level 10, 3 converted glyphs and 3 attack powerups (pretty standard endgame except for level 10):
old damage (human): 50 * (0.5+0.6) = 50*1.1 = 55
new damage (orc): (20+1+2+3) * (1+0.3) = 26*1.3 = 33.8 = 33
baseline: 50*1.3 = 65 and 3 potions

level 10, 5 converted glyphs, 5 attack powerups, sensory stone (same, but with a lockered sensory stone and more conversions):
old damage (human): 50 * (0.5+1.3) = 50*1.8 = 90
new damage (orc): (20+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8) * (1+0.5) = 56 * 1.5 = 84, no idea if there is a cap to orc damage stacking
baseline: 50*1.5 = 75 and 10 potions
low health orc warlord after using a mana potion (for fun): (50 + 36) * (1 + 0.5 + 0.6) = 86 * 2.1 = 180

level 10, 5 converted glyphs, 5 attack powerups, tri-sword (new) (same, but with a lockered tri-sword):
old damage (human): (50 + 9*3) * (0.5 + 1) = 77 * 1.5 = 115.5 = 115
new damage (orc): (20+9*3 + 1+2+3+4+5) * (1+0.5) = 72 * 1.5 = 108
baseline: (50+27)*1.5 = 77*1.5 = 115.5 = 115 plus 6 potions
low health human warlord after using a mana potion (for fun): (50 + 27) * (1 + 1 + 0.6) = 77 * 2.6 = 200

So even if you use an orc you do lower damage than before pretty much always. With Trog or some preparations you can get fairly close to the old damage. I guess with a double sensory stone new orc monk can beat old human monk, but that doesn't exactly happen much. Also with lots of conversion points damage race monks can do more damage than non-damage race other classes, but not more damage than damage focused characters.


Edit: I just realized that taking the attack boost for health prep might skew the results in the old monks favor. So here are the last two without that prep:

level 10, 5 converted glyphs, 3 attack powerups, sensory stone (same, but with a lockered sensory stone):
old damage (human): 50 * (0.5+1.1) = 50*1.6 = 80
new damage (orc): (20+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8) * (1+0.3) = 56 * 1.3 = 72.8 = 72 , no idea if there is a cap to orc damage stacking
baseline: 50*1.3 = 65 and 10 potions

level 10, 5 converted glyphs, 3 attack powerups, tri-sword (new) (same, but with a lockered tri-sword):
old damage (human): (50 + 9*3) * (0.5 + 0.8) = 77 * 1.3 = 100.1 = 100
new damage (orc): (20+9*3 + 1+2+3+4+5) * (1+0.3) = 72 * 1.3 = 93.6 = 93
baseline: (50+27)*1.3 = 77*1.3 = 100.1 = 100 plus 6 potions

As it turns out it doesn't really matter.


Edit 2:
level 1, trog's sword, no boosts or conversions: old 7, new 12, baseline 15. Looks like I finally found a situation where the new monk is stronger. Still way weaker at low levels than old trisword monk though.
Last edited by Galefury on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Beta update: screw you, monks

Postby TigerKnee on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:32 pm

Man, those are some terrible number for monks. I guess it's a good thing they were never really one of my favourite classes.
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Re: Beta update: screw you, monks

Postby fall_ark on Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:05 pm

So...basically the "Hand-to-Hand" change makes monk depend on weapons more? ಠ_ಠ
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Re: Beta update: screw you, monks

Postby TigerKnee on Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:38 pm

Whoa Galefury, you weren't kidding when you said new Glowing Guardian was terrible. Because... well, he is.

I did the Havendale quest with him and while Assassin/GG used to be a really good combo it's now... terrible due to the new Sanctify.
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Re: Beta update: screw you, monks

Postby Galefury on Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:58 pm

Wow, the Slime Pit should be called "We Hate Monks Inc.". Still doable with a monk (as per the quest), but hard, especially with the god nerf. Dracul did the trick for me though, decent god both for the monk and for the level. Fun quest line, and a nice way to get people to test out the new monk. From reading the description the reward item doesn't seem very useful though, and I didn't want to overwrite a locker slot to test it. :(

Also I hope the sludge mines come back at some point. I didn't like them, but they were a different sort of challenge than most other levels. And having different types of challenges is a good thing, even if some of them are really annoying. Plus some people actually liked the mines.
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