Persistent elements

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Re: Persistent elements

Postby berpdreyfuss on Wed May 08, 2013 5:42 pm

@ Waterd103: Go and try the game,
1. You can play without preps and play the different dungeons like in the alpha without the gold issue.
2. Look at it as a donation for playing the alpha
3. "Refunds are easy :) If you don't like the game, just ask." Is there any other game where the developers would write something like that?
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Re: Persistent elements

Postby Lujo on Wed May 08, 2013 8:28 pm

I'll restate this more clearly - you would absolutely not believe the depth of testing this thing went through, with many possible angles in mind, and taking into account very different approaches to playing it, roguelikes, puzzle games or games in general. What you fear about persistant elements disrupting the flow of the game has been the driving force behind hundreds and hundreds of A4 pages of analysis, feedback, discussion, whining and sometimes being suicidaly abusive to push issues for over a year. And thats just from me, and I'm hardly the only one on these forums to sink too much precious lifetime into playing, testing, pondering and writing about this game.

We the testers argued for nerfs for the sake of balance in a single player game PvE game with as much vigor as you'd get in moba's. Why? Mostly to prevent a particular unlock making a particular stage of player development not work as intended.

And there is so many challenges, maps and stuff in there now that you can set your own normal mode, your own comfortable zone with the right amount of challenge and fun - and when you master it, you can find another one, and when you master it, you can find another one. One week the post-post-insane-waytoomuchtimeonyourhands-dungeon is seemingly out of everyone's reach, next week were doing trickshots in it, then we drop the game for a few weeks and getting anywhere in a lesser dungeon is impossible because of being out of shape. Persistancy be damned, playing this thing is an artform.

Really, give it a shot.
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Re: Persistent elements

Postby The Avatar on Wed May 08, 2013 8:47 pm

Very true. It's like chess or maybe fencing. Easy to learn, hard to master, and very mental.
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I speak chaos.
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Re: Persistent elements

Postby dislekcia on Wed May 08, 2013 11:25 pm

Ah, I feel like my use of "ROFLstomp" may have caused some confusion here. It's not like you'd instantly win an easy dungeon when fully prepped, you could still lose. It's just that you wouldn't have to play as optimally to stay on the path to eventual victory. Then again, I see a single DD dungeon run as a progression along a set of resource-effectiveness curves by now, so you probably shouldn't listen to me when I'm talking about playing the game...

But I think the salient point here is that DD is a game about mastery. The initial challenge is hard, then you get better. Then we hand you new challenges with new rewards. Repeat until Vicious Token. We've even done things to the in-game economy as you progress to force certain kinds of learning in players, you can't just keep relying on your favorite preps to bully through. If you like the idea of overcoming challenges and coming to grips with a complex set of systems, then DD is going to be a rewarding thing to play.

Even something like Starcraft, Chess or Go (or Fencing, although the closest I've come is Kendo) I'm not constantly playing the same game - I'm getting better and playing against harder opponents to up the challenge. DD isn't multiplayer, so the challenge has to be upped by us at design time, we can't just cheat that and leave the difficulty in the hands of your opponent ;)
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Re: Persistent elements

Postby dislekcia on Wed May 08, 2013 11:35 pm

I think there's also a really good point to be made for the existence of easier levels of play: What about skill decay? I haven't played Guitar Hero for years now, if I were to pick it up again there's no way I could survive TTFAF like I used to. If that's all I have available to play, I'm a whole lot less likely to play it again, let alone play it long enough to get to the point where I surpass my original skill level.
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Re: Persistent elements

Postby Bloggorus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:04 am

wow epic thread for the sake of some dork who cant afford 10 buck on a game the whole universe agrees is good.

To hijack this thread, i also want to see more easy or normal dungeons. They are fun but all the really interesting mechanics are in the higher dungeons, where the bumped stats of monsters make preps a must, just to get the popcorn and resources to be able to progress. The effect of both stats and scenario on difficulty are multiplicative, so they ramp up very quickly.

it would be cool to see dungeons with really off the wall scenarios where the difficulty comes from the dungeon, not just because of high monster numbers. Because the +25% is not there, you can throw whatever you like at the player.

This game can be surprisingly zen when you strip it back, but the only dungeons you can really do that in is easy and only a few normals.

I'm big fan of sideways progression thought, so I'm biased towards players-set challenge levels.
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Re: Persistent elements

Postby Jambo11 on Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:06 pm

dislekcia wrote:We completely re-engineered the way gold works across runs in the beta. The way people were farming up in order to have their max gold amount before trying a "serious" run was rather annoying. In the beta you have an amount of Kingdom gold, but only a specific amount enters the dungeon with you each time, depending on the level of your bank. Shop item costs have been extensively re-balanced in order to make this approach work...

We feel it's more fun that way. You'd have to ask current beta players what they think about that... ;)


But if farming gold to prepare for a "serious" run is fun for them isn't that their prerogative?

Does anyone come to harm by their preferred manner of gameplay?
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Re: Persistent elements

Postby dislekcia on Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:20 am

Jambo11 wrote:But if farming gold to prepare for a "serious" run is fun for them isn't that their prerogative?

Does anyone come to harm by their preferred manner of gameplay?


In the alpha it took multiple "farming" runs to get your gold amount up to the maximum so that you could make the most use of the shops in a "serious" run.

In the full game it takes 1 run that you don't even have to win in order to have the maximum cash you can take into a run for shopping purposes. In the full game you can win 1 run and afford 80% of the preparations in the game to make your next run more likely to succeed... And, if you really want to grind for gold, you totally can, nothing's going to stop you. I don't see what is being "lost" in anyone's possible enjoyment.

Perhaps I don't understand the issue?
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