Suggestion - Warning

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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Waterd103 on Thu May 09, 2013 4:00 pm

Right now I have:
Hexx ruins
Souther swamp
Western jungle
Havendale bridge
Venture cave
Rock Garden
Norther desert
Den of danger
Eastern tundra.

Yes part of problem i don't like (minor complain not important) is that i don't even know what i'm "supposed to do" So im going for making quest. Right now i'm a Monk short of completing second generation.

I want to notice that the Puzzles that you find in the exploration guild are by far the hardest thing in the game so far, i fail there a lot and really have to think carefully to solve them. They are fun but they are "different" than the main game and not really the reason i'm interested in desktop dungeons.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Lujo on Thu May 09, 2013 4:13 pm

How about class challenges? Unlocked all the gods? You haven't seen the witch have you? Or her quest chain? Or the huge unlikely heroes questline?

And err, you've practicaly only seen the tutorials ^^ And that complaint isn't so minor, it's the root of your "game's too easy" stance.

Also, I get the feeling you might be overusing Mysterea, (I've been dropping hints about her abusability for a while now. you can really lean on her hard.).

(Mind taking a sceenshot of your Class-Race pre dungeon screen, and your prep screen? Really curious as to what you generally prep / which gods you go for, as well)
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby keithburgun on Thu May 09, 2013 5:29 pm

FWIW, it's also my experience that the game doesn't get hard fast enough. In fact, it's a major reason why I haven't been able to really play the beta very much, despite having played the alpha 999999999 times. If I had to choose whether to play the alpha or the beta right now I would absolutely choose the alpha due to difficulty / quicker startup.

>>>What's more boring, an easy run or a run that peters out into nothing as you slowly realise that you're not going to be able to win for whatever reason?


Just add a Resign button. It working that way is WAY better than having the possibility of a mis-click ever prematurely ending a game. Or, it might even be possible to have the system detect when there aren't enough resources to proceed.

>>>Giving up that most basic element of rogue-likes would be like taking the backdrop away from a play.


Desktop Dungeons is not, and never was a "roguelike". It's actually an original game, imagine that. Thinking of it as a roguelike and thinking of it through a roguelike lens is not helpful.

As for whether it's a puzzle (a thing that is solved) or a game (a thing that is won/lost), I would say it's the latter. Yes, there is a single victory condition, but there's a million ways to reach it, many ambiguous choices to make along the way. Actually, I think there might need to be another loss condition present, because death doesn't really make sense.

>>This has nothing to do with DD, and everything to to with the limits of technology. There is no computer command for "you know what I meant to do."


This whole argument is off-base because we can fix the problem by just not letting you kill yourself.

>>>Well, now you know how much mana fireball costs ;)


The feedback issue you talked about actually won't solve the problem. If you're playing a lot, you're going to be playing quickly, and you're going to be used to pressing the fireball hotkey and then clicking. Even if it says SPELL FAILED really big in the center of the screen, you'll still quite likely have clicked.

This is what happens when you have a design flaw, there's like all these emergent flaws that emerge because of it and if you refuse to fix it, you end up having to cover your system in bandaids.


Edit:

THE PROBLEM: Right now, if it says "DEATH", you don't click. The only time you do is if you mis-clicked. So it does not function for this to be the end-game condition.

Some solutions to the problem:

1. Create some OTHER game-end condition. Maybe the mission ends when you reveal a certain % of the map. Maybe there is some other resource. Maybe there's a straight up timer. I don't really have this answer, I just know that death is not the answer.

2. Add randomness to the attacks. If all attacks have some amount of randomness to them, then death can be used, because players can make a risky move. I am actually NOT a fan of this kind of randomness in games, but I prefer it to straight up illogical design properties.

3. (Least favorite, but still a solution) Just let players resign, or have the system detect when there are no moves left - checkmate.
Last edited by keithburgun on Thu May 09, 2013 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Lujo on Thu May 09, 2013 5:37 pm

keithburgun wrote:Just add a Resign button.


There is one, it's just isn't advertized enough for some reason. Or at all. In fact, the first tutorial that makes you die is really, really missleading in this regard, and just pointing out that you in fact can resign (or adding a more obvious interface button) would lower the total death count by quite a bit.

Or, it might even be possible to have the system detect when there aren't enough resources to proceed.


Most likely not.

Desktop Dungeons is not, and never was a "roguelike". It's actually an original game, imagine that. Thinking of it as a roguelike and thinking of it through a roguelike lens is not helpful.


Dude, no point going there.

This whole argument is off-base because we can fix the problem by just not letting you kill yourself.


They don't have a problem with it. You have a problem with it. There is no WE on this issue. If there was, it would've changed ages ago.

keithburgun wrote:THE PROBLEM: Right now, if it says "DEATH", you don't click. The only time you do is if you mis-clicked. So it does not function for this to be the end-game condition.


It's not ment to be that, it's ment for something else. You can resign, it's just not advertised (for whatever reason). Basic problem is interaction between not having death and the dodge mechanic and that's pretty much all there is to it mechanicaly.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Waterd103 on Thu May 09, 2013 6:43 pm

Wow I hit the fighter gold challenge I went from "super easy , easy, super easy, easy" to "hell difficulty" the gold challenge is harder than the explorer guild puzzle. Intersting enough it feels more like a explorer guild game than a normal dungeon.

I lost 20 more times in this challenge already than in all other runs together.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Lujo on Thu May 09, 2013 6:46 pm

Told you, what you've been puttering around in the tutorial. :D

(Had some good points though, but really, give the game some more time, and ask about things like "Is there a resign button".)
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Waterd103 on Thu May 09, 2013 7:24 pm

It doesn't mean it isn't a problem that i had to play for hours before having some challenge and that it scales likes this.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Lujo on Thu May 09, 2013 7:48 pm

True as well. But I suppose it would help the devs if they knew what items/preps you are using most often, what's your expirience with the alpha, and if you played a bit more what dungeons / runs did you find challenging and which ones did you find easy.

We've (the community) had issues with people "having it easy" and complaining about it and then hitting a brick wall and then complaining about it too - there's something up with the early learning curve / progression, and it could be attributed to various things. for example, try to explore any direction up untill you hit the vicious dungeons (you'll need to do the quest in the 4th dungeon, wich requires you to complete it with 3 classes from the same building). Your reaction to that could be enlightening.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Waterd103 on Thu May 09, 2013 7:55 pm

I'm wondering if this challenge is even doable without tons of luck without witch and alchemist open.
Here is a question, Having the alchemist and witch, does make this challenge easier? or the game adapts by increasing the difficulty in some way?

I will never complain about something being too hard per see. however if the difficulty progression makes no sense (like now) or if it's too hard for reasons that have nothing to do with how one plays the run in itself (for example if a run is too hard because one didn't unluck X yet, but unlocking X is not neccesary to be offered that quest in particular)
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Lujo on Thu May 09, 2013 8:52 pm

Ah, yes, well, that challenge is (was?) one of those where it undoable without the "suggested" unlocks. It was complained about that the tooltips weren't clear enough, the "suggested" label should've read "bloody mandatory". And we're not talking just lvl 1 withc, but lvl 4 (?) wich you can only unlock after quite a bit of a tricky quest chain. It was also complained that it becomes available befor it's doable which can cause frustration.

Try the other ones, and very nice to bring this up.
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