Some thoughts on balance. (also long)

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Re: Some thoughts on balance. (also long)

Postby Lujo on Wed May 22, 2013 12:35 pm

Kingdom of One wrote:God preps: I hadn't realised the altar would spawn at the start. It doesn't seem to mention this on the tooltips as far as I can tell. It just says the altar is guaranteed to appear in the dungeon. (I guess this should be made clearer).

Yeah, it's a big factor. They were introduced because people were scumming too much for the altars they want to appear relatively close to the entrance.

Kingdom of One wrote:Patches: I just don't tend to like mechanics with an unknown element to them. I think if the full list of effects was available somewhere (another useful codex entry) then this problem would partially disappear.

Originally you couldn't even see what you got at the time you've got it, and now you sort of can by mousing over and reading the bottom of the tooltip. I whish he had a "verbose" UI piece with just a string of icons detailing the bonuses you got so far.
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Re: Some thoughts on balance. (also long)

Postby Darvin on Wed May 22, 2013 4:36 pm

I mostly agree with Lujo on Mystera and Taurog. The wizard is already so good at spellcasting that Mystera does little to help him further, and there aren't many dedicated warrior classes in this game so Taurog has relatively few followers that fit his narrow niche.

As for god preps penalties (from worst to best):

Dracul: I find that since having him by the entrance isn't a huge deal, and his penalty can potentially be a game-ender the boss ends up bloodless, so I just never prep him. What's the point of an anti-scumming mechanism when it can screw you over randomly? I go with four altars instead.

Tikki Tooki: pretty steep penalty, but this guy is very nice if found early. Again, I rarely prep him because that penalty is so steep but unlike Dracul there's a strong case to be made for his sheer power.

GG/Mystera: these guys are functional, and seeing as they benefit enormously from immediate worship their penalty is (for all practical purposes) self-cancelling. That said, they will never be quite as powerful as they would have been if you'd located them early naturally.

Jehora Jeheyu: this guy's penalty is annoying as heck, but it can at least be mitigated by a compression scroll. Furthermore, this is a deity whose general downsides can be more easily controlled if you bring the right preps, so ironically predictability makes Jehora run much more smoothly. More than any other deity, he benefits from early worship, so all things considered he still makes a sensible choice. I still loathe giving up inventory space, though.

Binlor: superb pick for a variety of reasons, though the reduced number of wall tiles means converting out is mandated earlier than normal. Overall this is a fair tradeoff, and the only class I'd hesitate to take it with would be Paladin (who cannot convert out and is stuck with the reduced wall tile total).

Taurog: this deity is weird in this respect. I virtually never want to see him appear randomly since he just doesn't work with the majority of build/classes, but when he does work he's so good that prepping him is a no-brainer. The penalty is basically a non-issue; cowardly is generally a neutral trait that is helpful in some circumstances but harmful in others.

Earthmother: this is the only deity where the prep penalty is actually a bonus! One of the problems Earthmother worshipers often have is creating enough plants to fuel clearance. This "penalty" loosens that constraint enormously.
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Re: Some thoughts on balance. (also long)

Postby Checkem on Thu May 23, 2013 1:32 am

@Lujo: You're right in that regard. I didn't meant to use the word niche because that obviously means a certain group that uses her to her full extend. I mean to say the something akin to the "intended" audience for it, lore-wise. I think my problem with Taurog is the reason why you think he's great. Warmonger. If the only times it is viable to prep a god is to acquire 1 badge, then it's a bit of a downside for me. Of course he's great for the Orc Rouge, and the Priest in a undead map, but for the actual warriors, he's not much, heck, even the Berserker is better off with Mystera. In a circumstance where I found both Taurog and Mystera right out of the gate, I would go with Mystera without a doubt. same with GG, who is not as great with the Priest as I would like, but great with other classes.
(I know the fighters are great spellcasters, but they can't get much out of Taurog without a specific scenario.)

As for the god prep issue, I think it would be cool if they provided both a good and a bad effect. The current prep effect is obviously the "sacrifice," but the gods should also grant extra boosts for being a loyal worshiper. Obviously there is the balancing issue, but then it can be solved by boosting the prep penalties.
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Re: Some thoughts on balance. (also long)

Postby The Avatar on Thu May 23, 2013 1:36 am

That extra effect is you getting more piety due to earlier worship.

I use Taurog to grab resistances for res stackers sometimes, and then convert out, so he's not as niche as you think. I would still definitely take him over Mystera for a berserker unless the boss had high physical resistance just because of the great extra damage combo with my extra orc base damage. Then again I try to make all of my berserker runs warmonger (although I will use BICEPS and GETINDARE with Taurog and berserkers).
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