Disappointed..

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Re: Disappointed..

Postby The Avatar on Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:22 am

Please stop arguing. This is exactly what xspeedballx is talking about. Let's just forget the past and any of Lujo's past transgressions, locker arguments, etc, and move on. Please. I'm sick of all this arguing.
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby Bloggorus on Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:39 am

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Re: Disappointed..

Postby Lujo on Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:59 am

Sorry

Let's have a contest of some sort. A constructive one. Like really short wiki entries on something that there were none before. Something that doesn't need art. Whoever writes the best one wins.
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby booooooze on Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:00 am

I'd settle for a resurrection of dungeon of the day(/week).
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby The Avatar on Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:50 am

Yes! This is these are the kind of things that can/have/will make this forum great. Why not both?
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby Dreamdancer on Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:50 am

dungeon of the week could be a good idea. think there are now some more intermediate players and with the vicious token there is a way, that the vets can make their run much harder
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby xspeedballx on Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:41 pm

*sigh* I suppose I didn't expect a vast improvement. It also sounds like I came back at the exact wrong moment. Really though I think as a group we could be more constructive and helpful than just focusing on the wiki. The holy grail of game design and especially rogue-like design is making a deep, strategic game that a person can learn WITHOUT studying a wiki. This is what polish does. I know a lot of us are so far beyond the learning experience that it is hard to figure out how to improve the learning experience with just interface changes but it is probably the best thing we can do.

I am a lifelong gamer. I love games. I love lots of types of games. I have loved bad games, good games, great games. What I have come to realize though is that polish is more important than balance. A well polished game that engages and pulls in every player and envelopes them in the world and mechanics will always be more successful than a tightly tuned game lacking polish. This has been shown throughout the industry from indie to triple-A. Polished unbalanced games get sequels and turn to successful franchises. Tightly tuned games that lack approachability maintain niche support.

We are here because we love DD. We paid for it already. We talk about it, we think about it. We want it to be successful. What I am saying and what I was hoping is that there would be conversations around what more can be done to teach the lessons the players need to learn about resources. I have looked with interest to the small things added. Like the health and mana bubbles from exploration to explicitly tie those together. It was a tiny change in the scheme of things but it conveys so much information.

What else can and should be done? Maybe nothing? But I doubt it. I think wiki's are great. But I also think not needing one at all unless you really want to skip a step is better. There is always more to discuss than the few remaining features that we want. There is plenty of look and feel, that is admittedly harder, but it will pay off for everyone if we can find a way to describe it.

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Re: Disappointed..

Postby The Avatar on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:02 pm

Well, as of now, the most confusing and scary thing is gods. They also happen to be the single largest resource a player has. As mentioned in the other thread, the puzzles are rather niche and just really puzzles. Not tutorials. The codex will help significantly, but even then people who are screwed by a god right off the bat (usually by TT or GG), are scared to use them again. A small thing the game could do is jump you over to the piety tab the first time each piety changing action happens and give you 3 indulgences in addition to that starting piety.

The two other things which belong in Agbaar's academy are popcorn bowling and mid-fight level up tutorial (disguised as a WONAFYT tutorial).
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby xspeedballx on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:39 pm

Hmm so from your post what *I*(specifying me, not necessarily a royal I) here is that the game needs to find a way to organically showcase the benefits of mid fight level ups. Show them the massive resource gain you have by using it right and loss by not. I mentioned in the statistics thread that telling people the loss of resources from certain actions might be able to showcase some of this. Or at least point people's thoughts into optimizing use of there health and mana prior to leveling if possible.

Tutorials are great but it is hard to make static situations not either be pointless hand holding or complex puzzles.

As for Gods.. well I agree they are a problem. This has been mentioned numerous times, and I am not sure what the answer is. The fickleness of gods is important. But just dropping the likes and dislikes in front of a person in a codex may not teach them anything and might scare them more. And like you said, the puzzles are well.. puzzles. I feel like there has got to be a way that through just gameplay the user can understand deities both from there role in the game and there power to the player.

One thought and it may seem counter to what I just said but it provides an interesting learning method is instead of having the codex populated with the god's info from the start, have it populate likes and dislikes as you discover them. So after a rune the person can go to the church and review what they learned about the God. The player will then start intentionally worshipping gods and trying lots of things to get feedback. Sometimes a list being populated as you do things is enough to encourage a player to try scary(but ultimately not harmful) actions.
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby The Avatar on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:47 pm

I believe that is the idea for the god codex. That also insenticivzes people to fill in the other entries (thus using, and learning about the god).

The problem with mid-fight level ups is how unintuitive they are. It seems to make more sense to get to as high a level as possible and then fight the boss, when the opposite is true. People know they get all their hp and mana back, but they don't realize the possibility for spiking, hence the puzzle idea. And these devs make very good puzzles. The tutorial I Ed are neither redundant nor ridiculous, but very well made.
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