Scapegoats and Holy Divers

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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Waldo0 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:25 pm

This class will be released tomorrow? :)
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Bloggorus on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:35 pm

Has there ever been the option to upgrade to the special edition? I missed that boat a long time ago but have been hankering to hand over more cash ever since.

Lord knows I've gotten my $20 worth out of this game...
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Darvin on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:53 pm

It is more than possible to grab the 20 piety necessary from scratch, no matter your level.

Sure, but the 20 piety isn't the real cost; that first hit is practically free, all things considered. It's the long-term risks associated with JJ that make you suffer. If you don't pay 45 piety for petition or build up 50 piety to convert out, you're taking a terrible risk in the long-run, and if you're in for the short-run then exchanging a once-off potion effect for a permanent stat boost is a bad deal.

While JJ may be weighted to go easy on you initially, he will eventually smack you with his nastier effects if you stick around long enough. The benefits of "boost mana" can be lost several times over if he hits you with mana burn and drains a full tank. This risk is seldom worth taking. I'm not going to say never (I did do it once in a vicious-token dungeon for boost health to survive a hit from the boss) but it's a rare day indeed that I go for JJ without grabbing petition first.


But it's also extremely difficult to encounter a god ONLY late game, since the standard 3 altar loadout probably means that each god will be picked once in each phase of the game (okay, just averages).

Okay, I misunderstood; I thought you were literally throwing out the standard 3-altar loadout and having the altar literally get replaced every time you level up (thus it would be theoretically possible to worship all 8 over the course of a single game).

That actually makes things worse since you'll see JJ several times over the course of the game, but you can never take petition since that flag gets reset on conversion. His initial mercy will run out very quickly, and he'll eventually start smacking you with terrible afflictions at uncontrollable intervals.


so sometimes there's a dangerous ping-pong between the two remaining gods -- I once had GG and Dracul staring each other down.

Hmmm... GG sounds like a horrible draw given what you've described. Since you're always converting between levels, his piety gain on level-up is going to be severely gimped. The need for food makes absolution a terrible idea, and the lack of level-up refreshes means part of the benefit of humility is gone. His only real use is protection, so he's complete dead-weight for most of the dungeon.


Was considering that one too! I think players will be forced to make sacrifices to stretch out their food budgets in clever ways, but I feel it actually can be done with a fully-prepared character.

Yeah, those long underworld passages are going to be really deadly.


Has there ever been the option to upgrade to the special edition? I missed that boat a long time ago but have been hankering to hand over more cash ever since.

PM one of the devs. I've heard of other players upgrading, so it can definitely be done, but I believe it must be done manually.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby berpdreyfuss on Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:07 am

There is an option on the website for upgrading to the special edition
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:54 am

Fran wrote:I'm not really enthusiastic about the class, to be honest. Basically, what you're describing is a new set of draconian rules which will surely benefit the vets thirst for challenge, but at the same time, the class sounds pretty unplayable to anyone who isn't really good at the game and doesn't quite knows what he's doing. There doesn't even seem to be any positive class feature the class could actually use as an advantage.

My point is that as someone being mediocre at the game, I feel locked out of the bonus content if its only catered towards the vets' need for challenge, as it seems to do. I'm not mad at you or anything, I'm still glad I supported you by buying the special edition and would do it again, but making the class work differently without making it work much more difficult would've been much more fitting, at least in my opinion. I feel like a token which brings the foodsystem and underlying rules would've been a better idea.

Just my 2ct.


That's more than 2 cents and well worth consideration, IMO. Wouldn't want this lost in the cheering...
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Nandrew on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:26 am

Fran wrote:I'm not really enthusiastic about the class, to be honest. Basically, what you're describing is a new set of draconian rules which will surely benefit the vets thirst for challenge, but at the same time, the class sounds pretty unplayable to anyone who isn't really good at the game and doesn't quite knows what he's doing. There doesn't even seem to be any positive class feature the class could actually use as an advantage.

My point is that as someone being mediocre at the game, I feel locked out of the bonus content if its only catered towards the vets' need for challenge, as it seems to do. I'm not mad at you or anything, I'm still glad I supported you by buying the special edition and would do it again, but making the class work differently without making it work much more difficult would've been much more fitting, at least in my opinion. I feel like a token which brings the foodsystem and underlying rules would've been a better idea.

Just my 2ct.


Like any other class, the bonus character has a very flexible challenge range. A fully-prepped, lateish-game character entering Den of Danger should stand a pretty reasonable chance.

If you don't know the gods well enough, then yes -- you WILL take the occasional shock treatment. This handicap usually works out to be SOMETHING of a pain and will cost you a few resources or opportunities ... but short of running into really nasty stuff (GG punishment) it just hikes up the difficulty slightly. It's also important to note that all discovered god traits / piety sources will be recorded in the Codex when that arrives, which will relieve the info burden on a lot of players.

People most painfully hit by this new god switching *are* actually the veterans -- it breaks so many of their rules and builds, it's not even funny. If you're not used to leveraging gods, though, constant switching doesn't mean much and your number one rule will be to keep a safety buffer of about 20 piety regardless of which god you're serving.

I also happen to know what your particular progress is through DD, and I think that meaningful experiences with this class are more than present for you. You'll just have to accept that your adventures with the bonus class won't go quite as deep into the directional dungeons as your other characters, and I promise there's *plenty* of playspace otherwise. Many of my runs are still Purist Venture.


That said, it would be an interesting exercise if anyone could give elegant, one-sentence summaries of absolute must-know stuff for each god to *survive* a situation like this. Like a hyper-condensed version of Darvin's post.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Fran on Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:40 am

Nandrew wrote:
Fran wrote:zip


Like any other class, the bonus character has a very flexible challenge range. A fully-prepped, lateish-game character entering Den of Danger should stand a pretty reasonable chance.

If you don't know the gods well enough, then yes -- you WILL take the occasional shock treatment. This handicap usually works out to be SOMETHING of a pain and will cost you a few resources or opportunities ... but short of running into really nasty stuff (GG punishment) it just hikes up the difficulty slightly. It's also important to note that all discovered god traits / piety sources will be recorded in the Codex when that arrives, which will relieve the info burden on a lot of players.

People most painfully hit by this new god switching *are* actually the veterans -- it breaks so many of their rules and builds, it's not even funny. If you're not used to leveraging gods, though, constant switching doesn't mean much and your number one rule will be to keep a safety buffer of about 20 piety regardless of which god you're serving.

I also happen to know what your particular progress is through DD, and I think that meaningful experiences with this class are more than present for you. You'll just have to accept that your adventures with the bonus class won't go quite as deep into the directional dungeons as your other characters, and I promise there's *plenty* of playspace otherwise. Many of my runs are still Purist Venture.


Thanks for adressing my concern, but I don't actually have a problem with the god switching at all. I'd guess that the god switching is actually rather helpful for an inexperienced player by teaching them to how to cope with the various situations, and thats a good thing in my book as well.

My concern was targeted primarly at the food system and the lack of healing at level up. The other classes all have somehow balanced abilities where some things are good and some things are bad and in the end, you adopt to their play style and everything is fine. I'd consider the god switching as both, an disadvantage as it locks your freedom but also as an advantage as adaptive gameplay can net you something you otherwise couldn't have with the costly god switching.
However, regarding the food system, you get a penalty if you don't pace yourself good enough and you lose the healing at the level up. The convertions may balance the missing level up health, but that simply means that there is no real convertion instead. So in the end, you have a class with a somehow fair ability and two penalties (get penalty for exploring too much and have effectively no conversion bonus).
I just feel like the monster classes are more fair as they are difficult to play as well, but you can at least use their abilities to your advantage.
But then again, I know that DD is about having a challenge so I guess the design fits the intention very nicely, which is why I'm ok with the class after all. I just like classes like the vampire more, where you still have to reconsider everything you've learnt about the game as the rules are dramatically changed, but at the same time, you also get advantages to cope with those rules.

I'm sure I'll get something out of the class, but I feel like its an disadvantage that the class is not a viable alternative for the latter dungeons.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:42 am

Fran wrote:I'm sure I'll get something out of the class, but I feel like its an disadvantage that the class is not a viable alternative for the latter dungeons.


To be honest, unless the CP threshold is 200 or something (ok, maybe 150 or something), I think the class might have an easier time in VGT than anyone but the vamp. Depending on how god switching works in there, it might be able to stomp it unbelievably hard. Converting stuff for a full heal and debuf removal is a lot easier in theory than leveling up, not to mention easier to control and spike with, and past a certain point you need the heals much more than the levels.

Not to mention that if god swapping works a certain way, stacking resists with this guy might be easier than with most other ones, and then you have some stacked resists and heals which only require conversions. Whatever his penalties are that's got to be highly abusable somehow. Most of the problems with stacking resists from gods (except binlor) is mustering up piety for converting in and out, this guys saves tons on that, so there's a good chance he can grab taurog's and drac's boons rather effortlessly if they are around.

And since mana burn and poison are so huge against him, you can bet determined folks won't even attempt difficult runs withous scumming up a soul orb, which plays into the resist approach really well. It's always been like that before.

EDIT: One more thing - if this guy converts for a full heal and debuff removal then he's pretty much a goblin, and I've beaten more Vicious Token runs with goblins (non assassin) than anything else. This guy should be comparatively stronger because he doesn't need more and more conversions for his full heals, and if his CP cap is significantly higher than the goblin one then he's a "self imposed challenge" classless goblin, which is fine, I guess... If his CP is about the same as the goblin one, he might really be crazy broken :D

(Dev's aren't stupid though, and I bet the penalties will be significant enough to counteract the broken-in-theory CP mechanism :D)

It's also important to note that all discovered god traits / piety sources will be recorded in the Codex when that arrives, which will relieve the info burden on a lot of players.


Can't wait for this.

People most painfully hit by this new god switching *are* actually the veterans -- it breaks so many of their rules and builds, it's not even funny.


Yeah, it sort of reads as "How you like them apples, you bunch of munckins!" - <3. Well, it's sort of christmass for me personally because I'm more of a "roll with it upjumped casual" guy who's always asking others to do the math. :)

Many of my runs are still Purist Venture.


It sounds like a great way to give something to "one dungeon - different experience every time" crowd. I bet there is one, and we've seen complaints about it before (quite determined ones). Playing this guy will be a game of it's own, and if he's at all acessible as an unlock I bet there'll be plenty of people content to play only a select few dungeons just with him for ages.

That said, it would be an interesting exercise if anyone could give elegant, one-sentence summaries of absolute must-know stuff for each god to *survive* a situation like this. Like a hyper-condensed version of Darvin's post.


Taurog - Make sure to kill magic users while in him, save yourself pains later.

GG - don't drink potions too much, don't drink blood, and kill stuff with glyphs if you have poison or lifesteal.

Drac - Don't kill undead and get involved with boons at your own risk, apart from the lvl boon and resists.

TT - Grab the money boons and kill stuff other guys don't want you killing. Don't spend Death Protections, but kill all plants you can.

Mystera - don't kill magic users and get mana burned. Grab the mana point, but don't go for refreshment.

Binlor - Grab the endiswall if at all possible, you'll need it. Maybe :D

EM - Whatever you do don't kill plants.

JJ - grab a health or mana boost and stick a finger in your ear and sing.




Don't think I could do better without some experience with the class.
But there's a bigger thing, gods should be easy and fun.

I'm a bit worried about the poison and mana burn being more relevant. The old Gaan'Telet thaught me a few things about them -

1) They are a huge, huge pain even if you can level up to get rid of them.
2) They are such a huge pain that situations like old GT where you can't avoid them usually translate to "you can't win if you don't adress them".
3) Soul Orb and Viper Ward shut them down completely - and this leads to scumming, or has led to scumming even in the regular game. Even for people like me who despise scumming on all possible grounds - about 80% of my scumming was scumming for soul orb. Also, playing Hex ruins when it unlocks can be a nightmare or a cakewalk depending on whether you've prepped Viper Ward.
4) The biggest problem with Halpmeh for me was always the practical poison immunity it provides. It made poison trivial and contributed a lot to resist stacking ramapges.

In short - poison and mana burn never needed to be more dangerous (in fact mana burn arguably warrants a nerf to it, or a separation between mana drain and mana poison). It's been argued several times by various people. The problem was always that the solutions are impossibly good (ranging from simply chugging potions to being able to completely ignore them). I can't know in a advance, but every time we had this situation it devolved into really reductive gameplay.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Fran on Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:56 am

Lujo wrote:
Fran wrote:I'm sure I'll get something out of the class, but I feel like its an disadvantage that the class is not a viable alternative for the latter dungeons.


To be honest, unless the CP threshold is 200 or something (ok, maybe 150 or something), I think the class might have an easier time in VGT than anyone but the vamp. Depending on how god switching works in there, it might be able to stomp it unbelievably hard. Converting stuff for a full heal and debuf removal is a lot easier in theory than leveling up, not to mention easier to control and spike with, and past a certain point you need the heals much more than the levels.


You know that there is no debuff removal at conversion, right?

Fortunately, this crippling problem is mitigated by the bonus class conversion perk, which provides the full health and mana restore of an average level-up (without the attached cure effects).
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:59 am

Oh? Well, you can still spike like a mad person, in theory. Depending on the threshold, it's a crazy ass CP bonus.

And debuffs are either incredibly crippling or a complete non-issue as long as soul orb, viper ward and halpmeh do what they do, for those that want to scumm/prep them.

EDIT: Also, if you are spiking the boss and don't mean to explore while you are at it, full heal pretty much = poison removal unless poison prevents it. Mana burn is trickier, but as long as you chug a single potion, then you can proceede with the spike. But all this is educated guesses, it all might turn out completely different because there's no way to tell how the other abilities will affect the gameplay without trying it out :D
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