Scapegoats and Holy Divers

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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Darvin on Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:49 pm

People most painfully hit by this new god switching *are* actually the veterans -- it breaks so many of their rules and builds, it's not even funny.

I noticed this. Of course, the veterans are also masochists who enjoy taking something and breaking it in the most horrifying ways.


One more thing - if this guy converts for a full heal and debuff removal then he's pretty much a goblin

Though there are marked similarities, they are quite different. Goblins can leverage their CP bonus throughout the dungeon to maintain momentum and keep their level high. However, for late-game spiking you need a lot of conversions to hit even a single extra threshold. The Diver cannot use his CP bonus to increase his level and fighting power (though he can use it to spike a high-level monster for bonus XP, this is a pale imitation of a goblin). However, for an end-game spike he can completely decimate the boss with back-to-back refreshes.

Similar to the schadenfreude versus crystal ball debate: the crystal ball gives you better long-term value, but multiple schadenfreude potions let you spike the boss with consecutive attacks. Different value.


GG - don't drink potions too much, don't drink blood, and kill stuff with glyphs if you have poison or lifesteal.

Don't use BLUDTUPOWA. Absolution is a trap due to the way food works.

Drac - Don't kill undead and get involved with boons at your own risk, apart from the lvl boon and resists.

Avoid using HALPMEH and CYDSTEPP.

Mystera - don't kill magic users and get mana burned. Grab the mana point, but don't go for refreshment.

Actually, refreshment would be quite good since you can bounce back into her religion later.

Binlor - Grab the endiswall if at all possible, you'll need it. Maybe

Ensure you keep a 35-piety buffer if Binlor is on the field; you need to purchase ENDISWAL to start making piety with him.

EM - Whatever you do don't kill plants.

She also hates lifesteal attacks, though sanguine is fine.

JJ - grab a health or mana boost and stick a finger in your ear and sing.

Health and mana if it's feasible. Otherwise: "lalalalalalalala"


(in fact mana burn arguably warrants a nerf to it, or a separation between mana drain and mana poison)

Totally in agreement; this would finally bring Soul Orb into line, since it would only grant immunity to one of those two effects.

HALPMEH and the immunity wards are definitely going to be balance issues for the Diver.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:55 pm

Darvin wrote:
Mystera - don't kill magic users and get mana burned. Grab the mana point, but don't go for refreshment.

Actually, refreshment would be quite good since you can bounce back into her religion later.


Except if I read it correctly converting glyphs refreshes your mana anayway and you can't overheal mana :D

EDIT: If I know who the boss is, I'd spam weakening hard. A dude with a potential big bunch of refreshes ought to be really good at firebaling stuff to death. A timely flames might be a good idea as well, especially with a saved B2P.

Darvin wrote:
(in fact mana burn arguably warrants a nerf to it, or a separation between mana drain and mana poison)

Totally in agreement; this would finally bring Soul Orb into line, since it would only grant immunity to one of those two effects.


Not to even go over the whole "you can even veto viper ward because being immune to mana burn with halpmeh on hand makes you also immune to poison" thing again.

HALPMEH and the immunity wards are definitely going to be balance issues for the Diver.


Which is a darned shame if true (and what the devs wrote pretty much translates to this), because I really like an idea of tokenizing at least the food concept. Well I'd have to see it first :D


And about the diver =/= goblin thing, ofc they're different in this regard, but having controllable refreshes with goblins always was a big part of my gameplay. This guy just has better ones (possibly) in my eyes. You use your exploration to gain levels, and your junk to spike stuff to death, unless food turns out too much of a hassle, it ought to work like a charm.

Come to think of it, most of the tings that this thing is designed to punish or challenge don't really apply to me - I chug potions wantonly instead of pointlessly hoarding them, I kill same level monsters, I do "inefficent but good idea at the time" stuff and never really get anyoed because my projected engdame (if I have one) doesn't turn out to be maximally broken. And I'm the patron saint of CP shennanigans, sort of. Hmmmm... I'm not saying I'll be the first to break this thing, but there is a suspiciously high chance that I'll be breaking it at some point if it can be broken :D

I guess the food mechanic will do me in, I explore REALLY inefficently. Must be why I find it appealing :D
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby harfatum on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:18 pm

The god bouncing and the food/conversion mechanic almost seem like they'd be great gimmicks for different characters. Or, the food/conversion mechanic would be the racial trait, and the god bouncing would be a class trait. There could be a lot of unintended consequences from letting goats be other classes, but perhaps you could have just one or two other options, like Guard or Fighter.

To me, the food mechanic sounds like a great challenge to turn the game upside down. The god bouncing seems like it could be fun, but due to the highly random nature it seems like it might make me mad sometimes too.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:31 pm

I think he food mechanic was meant to balance the obvious "explore for leveling, convert for spiking" by making exploration tricky.

It's funny how it seems that you could implement something like that into the rest of the game and get the "roguelike mode" that the devs seem to think is allready there but actually isn't :D A lot of their perspective in the more vicious debates would make a lot more sense if it were a core feature (and a lot of the things would actually work as they seem to have intended/wanted judging from said outlook). (Again, have to see it in effect, but I think I'm right on this).
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby harfatum on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:42 pm

Ah, yes, I was thinking of the food requirement, the no-levelup-bonus, and conversion for healing/mana as a complete package. They should go together.
Last edited by harfatum on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Lujo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:48 pm

The no level up bonus is, I think, unsurmountable without the crazy ass CP refresh of something of that sort. As an exploration deterrent on it's own, the food system would actually make the game play more intuitively - it sounds like something that's in fact missing and should've been there all along for all sorts of reasons. Sounds like - I've yet to see it in action, but without it the game is a bit too easy* once you learn it (owerwhelming to learn though), and with it it'd be a bit hardcore (that is more of a roguelike) but a really, really good hardcore game.

The no heal on lvl-up would hose down lvl-catapults, but I'm not sure that'd be necessary for regular gameplay**, that's more to make vets switch it up and start prepping fabulous treasure and referring to themselves in 3rd person like Lujo does :D

EDIT:* that is - once you know what everything is and does there is a really wide margin of error. I'm sure of it because I get away with gameplay so sloppy it'd give Avatar a stroke.

**there are a lot more classes that depend on level catapults than any other mechanic. Removing it entirely in this way would kill them dead. Reducing the exploration margin of error would only really hurt the monk and the paladin, and those two can take a kick in the balls and not notice. Heck if it hurt the monk too bad, they could always *ghasp* rebuff him.
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