I may have just broken the cauldron

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Re: I may have just broken the cauldron

Postby Darvin on Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:23 am

Lujo wrote:Ever herd of the fabled "too broken to believe" cydstep rogue? :)

The Blood Power/Blood Tithe combo no longer exists, so I'm not too worried.

For those of you who weren't around in the early beta, the gods used to have 6 boons each. Dracul's 6th boon was "Blood Power", which granted additional max mana. Blood Tithe also used to work differently; it was a repeatable boon that lowered your maximum HP and gave you piety. The result was a bunch of 1 hit point characters running around with absolutely stupid amounts of mana. Usually Rogues and Assassins to take advantage of first strike.

JJ used to have a dodge boon (basically a filler clone of Tikki Tooki's), GG used to have a weird "sanctify" effect that let you gain piety if you could pull of a trick kill, Mystera/Binlor have been reworked since then so I actually can't remember what boon got removed, Taurog had a pair of boots that added attack bonus, Earthmother had a boon that granted extra CP, and Tikki Tooki used to have reflex and quicksilver as separate boons (making him and the Pactmaker the only deities not affected by the downsizing).
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Re: I may have just broken the cauldron

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:28 am

Technicaly, taurog's boots bonus just got distributed among other boons and doesn't take up an item slot anymore. So it was more like a buff/redistribution than downsizing.

And yeah, it's not gonna be broken as it used to be, everything else got it's time to shine and be tested and inspected, the power level of the dungeons got adjusted, and I'm so glad it's back even if it involves scumming.

Plus, I think you can also do it without earthmother, with JJ maybe. You'd be limited by the number of potions though, but you can take the exploding mana route with gnomes, and since you don't really have to be a Rogue I'm curious what I or whoever can come up with. There's been a lot of additions to the game since the days of cydstepp rogue. :)

And I'm not even sure we had extra glyph back then, for starters. Or the crystal ball.
Last edited by Lujo on Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I may have just broken the cauldron

Postby Darvin on Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:31 am

Technicaly, taurog's boots bonus just got distributed among other boons and doesn't take up an item slot anymore. So it was more like a buff/redistribution than downsizing.

That was added much later, IIRC. At the time, it was a downsizing. Still a buff since it greatly alleviated Taurog's inventory restrictions when you were aiming for unstoppable fury.
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Re: I may have just broken the cauldron

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:39 am

Eh, I still feel bad that the bonus from the unstoppable fury was removed. It was bloody making the monk not have a downside too easily, but I whish I could've kept my mouth shut on that one.

Anywho, a beloved screwy archetype is back, isn't degenerate anymore, halflings are indeed bottomless, worlds a good place, I'm off to bed and I'm glad I've had the pleasure of meeting you guys and being a part of the beta testing of this game. It's been a ride.
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Re: I may have just broken the cauldron

Postby Sidestepper on Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:41 am

Okay, I see it now. Truth is, I couldn't even remember the exact changes made to CYDSTEP, other than it was less painful to use.

I very much remember the old CYDSTEP Rogue. As a Rogue, I never worshipped Tikki Tooki, because every single time I did, I would immediately find CYDSTEP and wish I could go back.

Where are you getting the Weakening from? That's an uncommon debuff.
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Re: I may have just broken the cauldron

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:47 am

Sidestepper wrote:I very much remember the old CYDSTEP Rogue. As a Rogue, I never worshipped Tikki Tooki, because every single time I did, I would immediately find CYDSTEP and wish I could go back.


Which is exactly why it got nerfed. TT Rogues kill bossess at lvl1, except noone knew because of all the bloody cydstepping XD (it's practicaly true, and has more to do with perception than actual power, but you get what I mean - it's also why I don't in the slightest mind that it's back).

EDIT: Heck, it involves scumming but most people seem to have discovered it before the monk and there were people of the oppinnion that monks needed buffs. The old, pre-nerf monks.

Sidestepper wrote:Where are you getting the Weakening from? That's an uncommon debuff.


Eh, true, prep RBS or get cursed, or regen a tile or two or whatever XD

Good night, gentlemen :)
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Re: I may have just broken the cauldron

Postby Waldo0 on Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:10 am

Hmm.. Sorry to say this to Lujo. I know Lujo has tried to find a good usage of the cauldron, but is this really good?

But.. If this way makes other classes as Warload, then why don't just play as Warload?
(Starting with the glyph, an extra damage with the glyph(low hp) and anytime using the glyph)

You can say that this build is better than Gnome(or other races)+Warload+Earthmother+Other preps(ex: Elven boots, Crystal ball, Namtar's Ward) build?

I'll test it later, Sorry Lujo. :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Re: I may have just broken the cauldron

Postby The Avatar on Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:40 am

Hmm... I would say this has the potential to be better than the warlord build. It depends on how much you want to scum. The real benefit is you get one classes perks in addition to warlord spiking, so if that classes perks are especially helpful for the dungeon you are in, then yes this should be better.
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Re: I may have just broken the cauldron

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:23 pm

Well, what is better than an actual warlord? Very little. But what is a warlord? A guy with on-and-off 60% bonus damage who can cast cydstepp at will. That's it, that's all the class is, pretty much. And it's arguably the strongest class in the game (in terms of power/simplicity ratios go at least). The fact that players are reacting in this way to the discovery that "you can make everyone a warlord" is great - this means that the, now obviously temporary, ban on that concept worked! Back then there were concerns that taking that ability out will hurt the chances of completing certain dungeons with 3 classess, there were people who thought they were wronged by it. The fact that people are saying "meh, it's scummy, who needs it?" brings great joy and relief to me :)

EDIT: Also, the fact that someone said - but wait, "why not play the actual warlord" is AWESOME! <3 Wald0! Back when cydstepp was nerfed there was some of "Meh, now only warlord works, did anyone try whether he's any good?". In popular immagination, restrictionless cydstepp was taken for granted, and so was scumming. So the way of looking at was that warlord needed buffs because other people (well, the rogue mainly) were better with "his" glyph O.O I'm simplifying, of course, but not by too much. Now you can say "Prepped up Warlord is way above the curve" and the vets will generally agree, and the newbies who've discovered him will be aware that there is stuff they wouldn't know how to handle without him. Back then he was just the guy who started with cydstepp, a lot of other stuff was undiscovered/unbuffed/not there, and he was beating vicious and gettin people monster classess. The cydstepp rogue was "obviously" stronger, so warlord was "decent". Except if you don't take restrictionless cydstep for granted, and you don't think features should be measured with scumming involved, "decent" is an insult to the Warlord. Heck, even after the nerf it still took some folks some time to lay off the cydstep Rogue - the devs made it not be castable unless at full health, and people would find ways to reduce their health to 1 with a Rogue just to be able to do it. Scumming and all. And they had warlord sitting there all that time, exactly the same broken goof as he is now. And the rogue works with anything. And does lvl1 boss kills. With no cydstepp.

Ok, so, that out of the way, about the current incarnation, the Warling, which is indeed powerful:

Now, if you think about it, the way I discovered that the devs have put the build back in was simply sticking a Cydstep on a halfling. No cauldron! No EM. A halfling with enough health and a bit of resists simply spends the DP, drinks 2 potions, casts cydstepp, takes one hit, takes another hit, repeats. You have potions to blow. Any halfling is a potential warlord!

Now, the actual Warlord is being played with EM, which makes sense because you can cast a number of cydstepps regardless of you'r mana pool, so you don't care which race you are. So a Halfling who runs into EM and a cydstepp has the option of warlording it on the fly. A halfling with Naga Cauldron + RBS + EM who scums up a cydstep IS a warlord on top of anything else he is. What makes him different (apart from not starting with cydstepp)?

1) He has to spend a few preps on it so warlord beats him there since the warlord can prep more sinergy. However, if the warlord is prepping EM anyway, and the RBS is a fine prep on a warlord, it's only the Naga Cauldron. But even warlords like the Naga Cauldron - before this I could only really make him and the priest/monk work with it, and he likes it because it boosts his mana potions. So not that much different.

2) Warlord has his +60% damage. Ok, cool, but the Warling rogue has his stable 40% damage, first strike (if/when you ditch the RBS), built in dodge on a "string of free hits" character (very sinergistic). Transmuter has LEMISI to scout/scum, plenty of CP and spirit sword damage (and doesn't care for his own mana at the end spike because EM always gives you enough to cydstepp). Crusader has 3 altars to desecrate and/or get benefits from before he turns to EM for mana, can bring in patches with impunity, and can esily keep his +60% if he manages his popcorn right. I've herd that the one of the reasons the berserker has his mana penalty is that it prevents him from abusing cydstep, but he only need to regen 2 tiles to be able to cast it. The paladin can't match the damage, but he can get more greenblood/clearance and since he's got resists he can drink 2 potions and tank a hit before cydstepping, as well as prepp a damage item instead of the cauldron (and he can also easily prep patches). The priest has sinergy with the cauldron regardless of cydstep, he can also match the damage on one boss with pepper in place of the cauldron because he works as a semi-warlord anyway or he can perp Codex-EM or a damage item and still be able to go warlord if he runs into a cydstepp.

Whether it's more powerful or not, some of it isn't, some of it actually is, but it doesn't really matter, what matters is it's there. It's also flexible. It's something you can do with halflings on the fly to a degree. How many strats are there for halflings compared to any other race? Or for Naga Cauldron? Or cydstep compared to other glyphs? Ever since the cydstep nerf people would occasionaly bemoan the fact that only warlords could use it (abuse it IMO, it's a good glyph regarless and I've used it to great effect even with berserkers befor the buffback)? Halflings were only ever really popular when the trisword was busted and when it was nerfed you could hear "but what are halflings gonna do?" And as for Naga Cauldron, look at Avatars first reply :D

Heck, I feel like I could start up a new profile, bumrush GT to open up PQI and flaming dungeons and be glad every time I see the halfling come up instead of wondering what exactly to do with them apart from just potion spiking a boss mindlessly. Not that that isn't fun and that you can't easily just work a cydstep into it.

Anywho, sorry about the long post, I hope noone minds. I'll shut up about it now and be silently glad about it, and you got a bit of history, you got a bit of strategy, and all in all all is nice, I hope ^^ EDIT: And I'll surely add the cydstepp sinergy bit to the halfling entry on the wiki, it's rather a good bit of info to be aware of on any halfling run.
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Re: I may have just broken the cauldron

Postby ChasGB on Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:55 pm

Just tried this out with a halfling warlord, except instead of using EM I used an early JJ - probably not quite as crazy good as killing plants with EM, but considering that JJ piles on the debuffs via exploration, you're collecting piety instead of losing it, and you don't have to "waste" 45 piety on Petition. It's ridiculous!
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