Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

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Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

Postby lieronet on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:22 pm

Common wisdom holds that orcs are better levels 1-5 or so, while humans are better afterwards. I was curious to see the exact numbers, so did a bit of math. The results were surprising!

Assuming level 10, with no items in inventory, 400 CP (five conversions for the orc) gets the orc 10 damage, while it gets the human 20 (four 10% attack boosts, times 50 damage base). Factoring in attack boosters, the Orc gets 13, while the human stays at the same 20. Extrapolating, the orc equals the human with 100% attack, and from any point after that is going to do more damage. 100% attack isn't even that hard to do - extra attack prep gets you 50%, Rogue and Barbarian get 40% for free, and the Warlord gets a whopping 60%. Throw on Dwarven Gauntlets (nearly an auto-prep for me) and the perseverance badge, and you're easily in the 120-130% range. And remember, this is at level 10. Going lower level is only better for the orc.

In conclusion, for high %damage classes like Warlord, Berserker, and Rogue, orc is always better - even in the super lategame.
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Re: Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

Postby Blovski on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:57 pm

Yep, though conversely if you have substantial base attack boosts it works the other way around.
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Re: Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

Postby Sidestepper on Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:05 pm

Yeah, this is why you see lots of Vicious victory screens with orc Rogues, Berserkers and Warlods, but not as many with humans. Like Blovski said, humans can retain their edge if they get lots of base attack, but that's much harder to get than attack bonus.
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Re: Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

Postby Grakor456 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:20 pm

Blovski wrote:Yep, though conversely if you have substantial base attack boosts it works the other way around.


Main problem is, the only class with amazingly strong base attack boosts is the Transmuter, and even then you could make an argument to go orc with one to help out the Trans' early game. I pretty much never play humans anymore.
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Re: Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:01 pm

There's a reason Orc is highly recommended for Rogues, Berserkers, Warlords, and Crusaders; these classes have naturally high attack bonus that synergizes with the Orc base attack. Getting up to +100% is much more difficult for the other classes.

I always pick Orc for classes with attack bonus boosts, and I always pick Human for classes without attack bonus boosts.
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Re: Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

Postby Wargasm on Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:11 pm

I usually go Elf with Transmuters but I could see going Orc. I pretty much only pull out Human for Paladins and sometimes Monks. Then again there's very few games I like playing Humans in. They suck. :p

EDIT: Trying to decide which is better for Monk Gold, actually. Orcs have a better early game but I think Humans have a better shot at downing the boss. Unless PISORF shows, in which case Orcs may get the lead again. Now if only I could get EM to spawn without having already cleared a third of the map. (Dracul would be nice but he doesn't seem to spawn. Too easy, apparently. Heh.)
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Re: Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

Postby OneMoreNameless on Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:52 pm

To be fair to humans, there are probably more common items that boost base damage than their are boosting percent damage, particularly if you are going purist. Fine sword, Skullpicker, spoons in some dungeons etc. And extra total damage for fighting the boss is arguably more useful, particularly if you have prepped anything to help with the initial leveling.

Also, orcs are ugly, and who wants to look at an ugly sprite when you could be looking at a sexy human? :P
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Re: Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:27 pm

OneMoreNameless wrote:To be fair to humans, there are probably more common items that boost base damage than their are boosting percent damage, particularly if you are going purist. Fine sword, Skullpicker, spoons in some dungeons etc. And extra total damage for fighting the boss is arguably more useful, particularly if you have prepped anything to help with the initial leveling.

Also, orcs are ugly, and who wants to look at an ugly sprite when you could be looking at a sexy human? :P

Items that boost base attack:

Spoon (+1) (s)
Hero's Helm (+2)
Sword (+2)
Fine Sword (+4)
Skullpicker (+5) (note: Taurog's boons also grant attack bonus)
Trisword (+2 - +7)

Items that boost attack bonus:

Perseverance Badge (+10%) (s)
Badge of Honour (+10%)
Dwarven Gauntlets (+20%)


If we count sub-dungeon specific items:

Yang's Sword (+3 base attack)
Blade of Yin (+3 base attack)
Penance (+2 base attack)

Bound Sword (+15% attack bonus)


However, all that must be taken in the context of there being a preparation to give you two extra attack boosters, and extra attack bonus is a common class feature while extra base attack is very uncommon. In fact, Dracul and Taurog are the only deities that actually offer base attack at all (and even then not much).
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Re: Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

Postby The Avatar on Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:53 pm

Even with humans being better late game (for most classes) I always go orc. The power leveling potential for an orc far out does the humans and for me that makes orc a better choice 99% of the time (the 1% being VGT). Humans tend to get 2 level higher kills mostly, while I find orcs can get four level higher kills a lot of the time at low levels, and that means 10 more bonus exp.
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Re: Orcs vs Humans - Mathcrafting

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:23 pm

There's many factors why orcs are better - and it wasn't always so.

One was noted - the orc bonus always sinergizes whith the rather common +% bonus damage. It's also rather good at the beggining of the game.

But what's the one thing you lose if you go human and win if you go Orc? I mean, both get damage, right?

Orc's get knockback. From binlor's boons, bear mace and pissorff. Human's don't. I go Orc Bloodmage, and Orc wizard, and Orc sorcerer, as well as Orc Rogue, Orc Warlord, Orc berserker...

It also sinergizes with "might" (from many sources), and the reason I keep randomly grumbling aboout Binlor is that with extra attack boosters and binlor prepped you're basically guaranteed 60-90% bonus damage with anyone. With near mace prepped that's 85% knockback + 30% might if you're knocking stuff into walls. One of the 4 bonus subdungeons (which appear all over the adventuring map) can push that to 120 + 30. Even the least intensive variant is silly when you consider that on an Orc you can get both your base damage and at least 40-65% bonus before you fight anything or find an attack booster.

Some math:

Assumed 3 or for converted glyphs and/or some junk for 400 CP, Binlor's knockback boon and bear mace, and extra attack boosters. There's waaaaay more intensive approaches, this is pretty much bog standard for a damage build.

Lvl 5 human + 400 CP + 75% knockback + 5 att boosters:

Total damage = 66 Dmg
Knockback damage = 19
Pissorff damage - 12

Lvl5 Orc + 400 CP +75% knockback + 5 att boosters:

Total damage = 78
Knockback Damage = 26
Pissorff damage = 17

Am I wrong somewhere and is this significant?
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