Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

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Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:31 pm

While the interaction makes sense currently as far as wording goes, it doesn't as far as balance/gameplay goes.

How does it work:

If you Whoopaz a zotted enemy, you take him down to half his total health. This means that you can take any boss down to 3/8 health with any character with just a click or two.

What does it translate to:

It translates to having a bit over 2 stacking whoopazes which you can apply on a single hit.

What does that mean:

It means that the restriction on being able to prep only one whoopaz loses meaning. It also means that the Orb of Zot drastically changes it's wording in regards to whether you have a whoopaz handy or not - from "take a boss down to half health permanently by regen fighting him easily" to "take a boss down to half health permanently in 2 clicks"

Why does this not make sense:

1) Zot is powerful on it's own, but this use is strictly better - zot allows you to take away half the health on a boss with less effort than usual, this allows someone to take away half the bossess health with no effort at all.
2) Whoopaz is restricted, in most cases, to one per run. It's powerful, and completely universal, meaning that anyone at all can prep it and the dodge potion and have a brutal first hit on a boss. This allows you to have an even more brutal first hit which translates to having 2 permanent whoopases.
3) It makes Zot a much better prep than find. If you don't have whoopaz it's merely powerful. If you do have whoopaz, which can only be prepped, it's the most ridiculous thing there's ever been in the game (including "let's leave it in, lol" stuff like Titan Guitar). Seeing that Zot costs 50 gold to buy, purchasing it is actually a very significant choice to make in a dungeon run, while prepping it only affects your kingdom gold.
4) The paradox under 3. leads to having a really easy time developing a habit of prepping Zot. It's good for leveling, it's regular effect is good AND it makes killing the most dangerous boss half as easy.

Suggesstion:

So I'd repeat Sidesteppers (or someones) good suggestion of having whoopaz work on current health rather than total health. I'm not sure if it would mess something else up, but I'm sure it would also help with the problem of whoopaz being useless unless you use it on the first hit, and even vets forget and have it sit in their inventory for no reason.

EDIT:

Just to make sure noone thinks I'm being a self-righteous killjoy of some sort, it's not that I don't see potential arguments for "leave it in":

Q: It's fun, there's other powerful stuff, why this?

A: Because it's fun in a "look ma, no gameplay!" way. It's too good to kick it out of a locker slot, and it's too strong not to have you considering it every time you play. It's also a class-race-deity-strat unrelated bosskiller gimmick, in a game where killing the boss is how you know you won. Both elements are really strong on their own, and Zot is actually a fine, if overpriced, leveling prep even if you neve "pop" it. This way you don't have to pop it untill the boss fight, when the fine leveling tool translates into a half-dead boss in a jiffy.

Q: But how do we get out monster classess now? :(

A: By using races, classess, glyhs, blackspace, strategy, gods, items... items including even the Orb of Zot, which starts you off with some health and mana and lets you regen fight a boss for unlimited poison strike untill he's at half health. Just saying.

EDIT 2:

A fun suggestion I just had a thought that considering the pricyness of the Orb of Zot, that maybe it could apply it's effect at the time of purchase as well as being able to self sacrifice for reinforcing it? A-la Titans Guitar. Might be a good idea, since the big "meaninful choice" moment is when you decide to dish out the big pile of gold for it or prep it - destroying it jusg gives you what you payed for and opens up a large inventory slot. Might be worth a thought.
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Re: Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

Postby OneMoreNameless on Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:11 pm

Hey. Hey, now. Although I did prep both an Orb of Zot and Potion of Whupaz for my last two vicious victories, I did not, in fact, use them on the same boss in either dungeon. I'm cool!

But yeah, would not oppose nerfing the combo.
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Re: Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:38 pm

OneMoreNameless wrote:Hey. Hey, now. Although I did prep both an Orb of Zot and Potion of Whupaz for my last two vicious victories, I did not, in fact, use them on the same boss in either dungeon. I'm cool!


Well, then a nerf wouldn't in fact affect you :)

And even if you did, who could blame you? There's not grounds to "call someone out" on using it. I use the Titan's Guitar even though it's gamechanging, it's just that the way in which the Zot+Whoopaz combo is gamechanging seems wrong on many levels. If there's a way to make both Zot and Whoopaz be preppable togather without the sinergy (since they don't really need any sinergy with each other, they're potentially gamechanging/impactful on their own) - then it should probably be done.
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Re: Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

Postby Wargasm on Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:47 pm

I still have only actually activated Zot once, and it was for a burning dungeon, not for anything like VGT or anything. I'm actually contemplating putting Elven Boots back in over it because it's the three mana I really like. Trading 5 health for 15% MR is a no-brainer on any map that has magical attacks.
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Re: Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:53 pm

Wargasm wrote:I still have only actually activated Zot once, and it was for a burning dungeon, not for anything like VGT or anything. I'm actually contemplating putting Elven Boots back in over it because it's the three mana I really like. Trading 5 health for 15% MR is a no-brainer on any map that has magical attacks.


Yep. It's wouldn't really kill anything, except help you look past an obvious gimmick when thinking about what to prep, and feel better about rotating your locker. And while we're at it, if you're considering putting the boots in, give the Guitar a try in that slot first :)
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Re: Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

Postby Wargasm on Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:55 pm

I'm still trying to scum for the guitar. I did 11 tries with an Elven Tinker in the Labyrinth last night, it didn't spawn on any of them. I'm just about to start playing for today.

(Also, I want the boots for the mana + MR. Unless the Guitar gives +max mana for my Bloodmages, it probably won't do what I need it to. I'm more likely to replace Fabulous Treasure since I don't really find buying out to be a winning strategy so far except with Vampires and Tinkers, and Tinkers already come equipped with everything they need for that.)
Last edited by Wargasm on Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:56 pm

Wargasm wrote:I'm still trying to scum for the guitar. I did 11 tries with an Elven Tinker in the Labyrinth last night, it didn't spawn on any of them. I'm just about to start playing for today.


Eh, it spawned for me 3 times in 5 tries of that warmonger gorgon run :(
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Re: Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

Postby The Avatar on Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:07 pm

Yes, this definitely needs a nerf. Considering how the devs nerfed the original Whupaz down from 65% to 75% because it was a no-brainer prep (and really, it still is) they really should nerf this combo from 37.5% back to 75%. Also, I still haven't lockered the orb even with this combo coming up. It just feels too much like cheating the game to me. More like a bug than any sort of legitimate strategy.
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Re: Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

Postby Wargasm on Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:17 pm

Okay, I got the guitar. Meh. Cute, but that's only a huge change to like...three dungeons? And I've never had much problem with Shifting Passages and actively like Rock Garden. Although I may use it to get 18/10 completion on Labyrinth just so it never shows as anything but a burning dungeon again.
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Re: Please fix the Whoopaz + Zot interaction

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:22 pm

Wargasm wrote:Although I may use it to get 18/10 completion on Labyrinth just so it never shows as anything but a burning dungeon again.


That's what I did :D And it's actually really good on more than a few maps. Especially if you're trying weird stuff out or prototyping strats, it takes a minor annoyance out of the equation.
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