Orcs vs. Humans

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Orcs vs. Humans

Postby bla0815 on Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:51 am

EDIT: Turns out the graphs are to broad for the forum. I'll change that eventually - for now please right click and click "view image" or something along the lines.

Anyway, since i can't save right now playing has become much less interesting and so i did some graphs on the new balance between the orc and human races. I'm not sure how useful this really is, becaue it doesn't tell us anything new, but some visual representation shouldn't harm and make it easier to talk about it.

Since both classes focus on dealing melee damage i did the graphs with and without tri-swords, since the tri-sword is one of the most powerful attack booster in the game (it was on par with the old sensation stone for orcs most of the time). I'm going to look into Wurghaarbl at a later point. I'm open for suggestions on how many monsters you actually slay on average, since you know doom armour...

I assumed the standard 3 damage boosters and all conversions done from the very start. This obviously skews the favour to the orcish side for the early levels, but that's not too much of trouble if we just keep it in mind.
I did graphs for monks, basic classes and rogues, which are very similar to warlords (i know they also have the mana potion thing...) with extra damage boosters and berserkers (usually have +10% more, but not sometimes you just fight the boss at lvl 10).

I did all the graphs for three cases:
1. A massive amount of conversion points (840 and respectively 800), which is usually only achieved by converting all your stuff and having a bit of luck at the shops therefore going full melee (Taurog loves this - maybe i'll add a +5 dmg; +20% dmg graph later on).
2. A mediocre amount of conversion points (480 and 500), which you will have if you don't convert all your glyphs and mana potions and use your shopping to actually keep items or get unlucky with the tatoo/troll heart/gloves.
3. No conversions. Basically this is for comparison with other races, but also gives you a bottom line for estimating the early stages with a small amount of conversions done.

So without further talking:




I'm not sure what to fully make of it yet, but the basic results seem to be:
- with tri-swords humans outperform orcs in the late-game
- even at orc-favourable circumstances, but only very slightly
- given the early game advantage orcs have an easier time to actually reach high levels (importance depends on dungeon)
- humans outperform orcs if you buy some other items and keep at least one glyph
- without triswords orcs win the monk and +% cases from early to late
- orcish pisorf is very powerful and they are less prone to weakening
- while they make more use of biceps, they also have the strong urge to convert it :/

Remember Wurghaarblll should skew the balance back to orcs again, which should result in the choice of how much magic/items you want to use. If someone feels like doing some spot tests with the data, please do so and tell me about it. I could have easily done some mistakes.

EDIT: Turns out Wurgharbl with 40 kills is strictly inferior to tri-sword (i didn't do the calculations for wizards) unless of course you get those kills without leveling up... I did the graphs, but i think they will make things more cluttered instead of being useful at the moment.
Last edited by bla0815 on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Orcs vs. Humans

Postby Wargizmo on Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:50 am

(note, images don't work but you can see them by copying the link and looking in a new browser window)

Very interesting, a lot of it comes down whether the Orcs early game benefit will translate to an extra level later on when you fight the boss. Some of this depends on the gods you roll, if you're lucky enough to get both GG and Tikki in the same game the early Orc advantage is massive. You can start off with GG and get huge amounts of piety and XP defeating higher level monsters. Once you get enlightenment you can then switch over to tikki and take his xp boon before mopping up all the low level monsters lying around, you'll easily have enough piety to take poison/dodge before hitting the boss. Also with enlightenment you get even more conversion points which helps Orc even more.
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Re: Orcs vs. Humans

Postby TigerKnee on Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:24 am

Regardless of how the numbers work out, I dislike the 120 conversion points cost. I like knowing that 1 glyph conversion gurantees some advantage with all races while the other races get more benefits once in a while. Orcs break the symmetry there.
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Re: Orcs vs. Humans

Postby q 3 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:22 am

I am actually really liking the new progression for Orcs - it keeps them from being overpowered and still makes them unique relative to humans. Orcs can get a lot of power early on and remain powerful in the endgame, especially on a purist run, but only if they're willing to sacrifice a lot; Humans are more willing to hold off on conversion and take advantage of items, because they see the biggest advantage later on and with fewer conversions.

IMO the races are all pretty well balanced at the moment, with the possible exceptions of Halflings and Goblins who tend to be fairly difficult to succeed with. Halflings may become better as they get more favorable deity selection - Binlor and Earthmother should both be solid choices for them, depending on how they're implemented - but now that gold tends to be more scarce than experience (particularly in the vicious dungeons) I think Goblins might be better off going back to their original alpha incarnation and converting for gold.
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Re: Orcs vs. Humans

Postby MeVII on Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:27 pm


Typically humans are given the attribute of versatility / adaptability, not strength.
Ive always thought the humans should be given and XP bonus, or, perhaps every 75pts, humans can get any 1 of the bonus atribs randomly from any of the other known classes. (Classes moved into the player kingdom.)

Anything that implies versatility / adaptability.

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Re: Orcs vs. Humans

Postby q 3 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:01 am

Humans have been +10% bonus damage since the original alpha, and they've worked quite well like that. I'd actually say they are the most adaptable race in DD beta, since bonus damage is helpful no matter what strategy you use (in the alpha, a pure fireball caster wouldn't benefit since Mystera dropped your attack to 1 permanently, but in her current incarnation and with many high level monsters having Counter Fireball, casters can really use an attack boost). Elves and Gnomes tend to do poorly as Taurog acolytes; Dwarves and Halflings do poorly with CYDSTEPP and Dracul-worshiping caster strategies; Orcs are inferior as fireball casters (Wizards and Mystera acolytes can make better use of bonus damage to compensate for their damage penalties); and Goblins, besides being inferior generally, do poorly with Taurog (since he encourages early glyph conversion, while Goblins usually want to avoid early conversion because leveling up too quickly deprives them of bonus exp).
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Re: Orcs vs. Humans

Postby platypotamus on Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:01 am

q 3 wrote:. Elves and Gnomes tend to do poorly as Taurog acolytes;

I don't know... doing the Unlikely Heroes quest gave me an appreciation for the Taurog Elf. Convert glyphs = piety + extra mana, which gets eaten up by the armor, but leaves you with some mana reserves for the glyph you choose to hang on to the longest. Taurog gear + heal glyph + enough mana for a few casts can lead to some pretty good bonus XP
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Re: Orcs vs. Humans

Postby q 3 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:20 am

That's true - especially if you're only going to take a couple of his boons and then switch to a different deity. In the long run, though, your MP tends to get too low and your inventory tends to get too full - and you'll never reach the attack power of an Orc or Human, which is usually more advantageous.

Taurog Gnomes still suck, though. :)
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