WONAFYT: Doubts about it

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WONAFYT: Doubts about it

Postby nopaint on Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:16 pm

While I was playing Desktop Dungeons today, I realized that maybe I should stop looking at WONAFYT as the poor cousin of WEYWUT. So my doubts are these:

  • When I use WONAFYT, can I predict where the summoned monster is going to be (ie. to the left/above of me)?
  • Can I predict whose monster is going to be summoned by it? (ie. nearby/3 squares away same level monster)?

I'de really like to have an answer for this, seen as 5 mana is much more usable than 8 :)
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Re: WONAFYT: Doubts about it

Postby Sidestepper on Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:30 pm

WONAFYT is great. It does have kind of a high skill floor though.

When I use WONAFYT, can I predict where the summoned monster is going to be (ie. to the left/above of me)?


Yes! Well, to an extent. The summoned monster first tries to enter one of the squares directly up, down, left or right from you (determined at random). If all of those are filled, then it tries the diagonals. If all of those are filled, it places it 2 squares away from you. Knowing this helps lets you use WONAFYT to corral popcorn monsters without accidentally blocking yourself off.

Can I predict whose monster is going to be summoned by it? (ie. nearby/3 squares away same level monster)?


It tries to grab an equal level monster that hasn't already been slowed. If it can't find one, it looks for progressively lower level monsters. If there are no monsters of your level or less that haven't been slowed, it grabs an already slowed monster, starting from your level and working its way down. WONAFYT will never target a higher level monster.
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Re: WONAFYT: Doubts about it

Postby flap on Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:16 pm

Sidestepper wrote:WONAFYT is great. It does have kind of a high skill floor though.

Can I predict whose monster is going to be summoned by it? (ie. nearby/3 squares away same level monster)?


It tries to grab an equal level monster that hasn't already been slowed. If it can't find one, it looks for progressively lower level monsters. If there are no monsters of your level or less that haven't been slowed, it grabs an already slowed monster, starting from your level and working its way down. WONAFYT will never target a higher level monster.


The consequence of this is that, if you have slowed all but one same level monster, that monster will be targeted next. Imagine: you are level 3, you casted WONAFYT enough time so that last monster that has been teleported was level 2. It means that every level 3 monsters have been slowed already. So you know that you can fight one of these level 3 monsters and be sure that he will be targeted and slowed next time you cast WONAFYT, granting one First Strike (even against Goblins) and 1 extra XP.

However magic resistant monsters might mess this up (they have a chance to resist, and will be selected with lower level monsters).
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Re: WONAFYT: Doubts about it

Postby Darvin on Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:11 pm

WONAFYT targets monsters in this order:

1) equal level monsters without magic resistance that are not slowed
2) lower-level monsters without magic resistance that are not slowed
3) equal level monsters with magic resistances that are not slowed
4) lower-level monsters with magic resistance that are not slowed
5) equal or lower level monsters that are slowed
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Re: WONAFYT: Doubts about it

Postby Lujo on Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:27 am

In nice graphical terms - it tries to make a flower around the hero, top/bottom, then left/right then diagonals. If one of these is blocked you can be pretty sure the monster will spawn in the other one.

Also, I always wanted to get a bit in-depth on it so thanks for giving me the opportunity :) Here goes textwall:

This glyph is very different than Wheytwut in a way that makes it theoretically the most powerful or impactful glyph in the game :) It crates an enormous efficency advantage, so large in fact that it's hard or even impossible to capitalize on in a way that would actually break anything. Just think - if you find it early, you pretty much start the run with most of the popcorn teleported to the entrance.

Normaly, building up a popcorn bowl actually costs you blackspace for exploration and popcorn can be in your way, stuck behind threats you can't fight, popcorn you want to kill early for piety can be hard to find while you run into popcorn you don't want to find. Wonnafyt does away with all of this and blows a big hole in the regular approach to a run, sets up all non-magic res popcorn to +1XP, declogs passageways, and sets you up for both level cannons and regen fighting at the same time. It also gets you piety for gods who like slowing things and can give you big advantages for the god juggling game:

If you thoroughly Wonnafyt a map early and then join Taurog, you can technicaly start the game with a lot of piety for killing magic users. You can also kill off the undead for one god, and then join Drac at an efficent rate. You can make sure you never have to sacrifice Mystera piety for exploration. Etc...

Then you have the debuffers - you'll always have curse removal fodder handy. If you keep it for a while, you'll be sure that other stuff you never want to fight is out of the passageways. It kills those annoying low level lifestealers. If you know that all the mosters of your level or lower are slowed, you can fight a blinker (a lifestealing blinker!) and it will never manage to escape into blackspace.

If you combine it with IMAWAL you'll always have a slowed popcorn to stone for +1 XP and +50% on your next kill (and curse removal).

And there's also at least one vicious map where it breaks a big part of the challenge like nothing else :)

The reason it's not too broken is that it creates such a huge efficency/blackspace advantage that you can't really cash in on it all most of the time. And you still have to explore to find altars, bosses, shops and powerups. But if you could prep it, that prep would allow you to play a variant of Desktop Dungeons quite a bit different from the usual setup. It's a bit like IMAWAL and LEMISI, in that it changes some fundamental rules (IMAWAL lets you play at a different XP progression, LEMISI gives you tons of info and with the right subdungeons can significantly increase the ammount of effective blackspace on the map). It's just, really, really front-loaded :)
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Re: WONAFYT: Doubts about it

Postby nopaint on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:06 pm

Thanks for everyone's replies, surely they are helpfull :)
Nice wall of text there Lujo, certainly gave me some ideas, and yeah, I'm using it alot more efficiently now :)

Btw, nice community here, cheers! Now let me play just one more game :D
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Re: WONAFYT: Doubts about it

Postby squirrelnest on Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:29 pm

i greatly enjoy a run with both a balanced dagger and early wonafyt.
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Re: WONAFYT: Doubts about it

Postby sitnaltax on Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:07 pm

Stage 1 of WONAFYT: "Ok, cool, this brings a monster of appropriate level for me to fight. This helps me avoid getting blocked in by higher-level monsters." I ended up going through this stage back in Alpha days.

Stage 2 of WONAFYT: "Wait a second, I want to be fighting higher-level monsters whenever possible. If I use WONAFYT I'm just throwing experience away! This is an auto-convert."

Stage 3 of WONAFYT: "Ah, I see. WONAFYT can be used to conveniently arrange and position low-level monsters, allowing me to use them for mid-fight dings later at my convenience; it even gives them a bonus XP to boot. If I happen to be fighting a monster of equal level for whatever reason it even gives me a first strike." Maybe we should call it WONAFYTEVENTUALLYBUTNOTRIGHTNOW?

Balanced Dagger + WONAFYT got me through some of the unfriendliest Vicious dungeon class combos.
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Re: WONAFYT: Doubts about it

Postby Lujo on Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:31 pm

There's also stage 4 of WONAFYT: Whait, wut, I can haz popcorn bowl AND tons of blackspace so my paladin can both ding AND regen fight? And my bloodmage can haz a buffet set up before he starts throwing all the blackspace at the boss? EMEHRGERD!

EDIT: (I'm not even making that up, the story of how I got there is a bit strange, bear with me :D)

I can't remember the specifics but I was trying something out because of balance testing or somesuch. Some combo looked to be to easy to execute with excessively good results and it was puzzling me. I was trying not to make a rash textwall, and it was especially puzzling that I was in fact getting a bit inconsistent results. A few runs would be silly, then one would fail. Then a few good ones, then a fail. And I couldn't tell what was causing the fail.

And then it hit me - I was getting a really lucky streak with finding an early wonnafyt, which was allowing me to start the run with a popcornbowl without exploring (and all the other perks). The build was not really overly powerful - but I got to see just how much difference wonnafyt can make, and it was quite visible.
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Re: WONAFYT: Doubts about it

Postby Blovski on Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:24 pm

Great glyph

The ease of use factor shouldn't be overlooked.

Depending on race and your preferences and whether you find a better glyph, you can convert it after level 2 and be pretty sure that's a good decision most of the time.
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