Max CP pops out of a run

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Re: Max CP pops out of a run

Postby Astral on Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:50 pm

Yeah I also love this tendency of the game. It never ceases to amaze me how much more fun stuff there is to try.

In a certain way this strat is like an acidcaster gone crazy by bloodmagic. What I really love about it is how flexible it is. You could leave out RH or FH and with a reasonable amount of extra health it would still work.
Now I'm curious what is the absolute lowest health where it is still functional.

@Schachter: My previous tips were very bland, sorry for that. That's because I don't have any go to srats, I always make up my strategy on the fly. Today I had some time to play, so I tried a few purist Gorgon runs to gather ideas:
- As you guessed damage and resist stacking are important, but those efforts still won't make Gorgons better regenfigthers than Monks. But it's not a problem. With Gorgons you can use regenfighting to soften up an opponent just as much where some clever finishing moves can take them below dg territory and earn you the kill, like a DP hit.
- GETTINDARE and BYSSEPS are not worthless for Gorgons. Usually your normal strike comes after dg and opponent's attack, but a combo of those 2 glyphs can give some powerful finishers.
- Gorgons don't have much trouble worshipping an early TT. Hit an opponent once for the poison piety than unleash your spells and finish with the dg. Of course this requires some help from items or a B2P. Now what is really awesome is that you can pick up 3-4 poisons and convert out to stack resistances under someone else. That way though you can become as good as a Monk in regenfighting while still having all the flexibility a Monk lacks.
- Surprisingly Gorgons can get some use of 8 MP CYDSTEPs. Thanks to your poison you can "regenfight" foes with killer dmg and activate multiple CYDSTEPs meaningfully. It's also nice to enjoy 5 MP fireballs and ENDISWALLs.
- Don't let your dg discourage you of joining Dracul or EM. A useful boon always makes up for some statue breaking. And if you see that you won't be able max out your resists go ahead and pick up a lifesteal too.

Btw when you play Gorgons how do you regenfight? Are you trying to make sure that the opponent never heals back from poison? Because it's not the best aproach. You can kill foes with higher attrition in a "panic-regenfighting" way. Buff up before fight, load out a lot of hits to build up poison - regenarate (save some mana) - continue fighting and if you see that you're running out of health to keep up the poison don't worry. You just have to reach the dg territory where dg kicks in and your regenfighting power can double thanks to it, or simply finish off with clever glyph use. Also if at this time you need some extra mana, letting the monster regen a bit is not the end of the world.

Right now that's all that came to my mind. I'm also working on an equation for poison based regenfighting, I'll post the result when it's tested.
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Re: Max CP pops out of a run

Postby Lujo on Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:38 pm

(Clapping smiley) Dat halfling Transmuter ^^

See, I told you halflings were crazy awesome ;) And this is possibly the brokenest application I've ever seen XD
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Re: Max CP pops out of a run

Postby flap on Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:41 pm

Astral wrote:
Right now that's all that came to my mind. I'm also working on an equation for poison based regenfighting, I'll post the result when it's tested.


Look at the math on that page : http://www.qcfdesign.com/wiki/DesktopDu ... _attrition
and change the formula with this :

Let's define :
Dh = damage caused by hero (in hitpoints, or hp)
Rh = point restored by hero per tile (in hitpoints/tile, or hp/t) (usually level of the hero)
Dp = Regeneration points prevented by poison (hp)
Cp = number of tiles to cast poison (usually, cost in manan) (t)
Dm = damage caused by the monster (hp)
Rm = point restored by the monster per tile explored (hp/t) (usually level of the monster, or level-1 if the monster is burning)

You have the total damage caused to the monster by the hero per tile (taking into account the regeneration) : Dt = (Dh*Rh - Dm(Rm - Dp/Cc))/Dm (in hp/t)

So, you can regen fight if Dh*Rh > Dm(Rm -Dp/Cc)
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Re: Max CP pops out of a run

Postby Astral on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:15 pm

Thanks, I know that formula. What I tried to say wasn't about casting APHEELSIK but using poison strike.

What you wrote is very good, and is perfect for usage on a current fight. What I created is more geared towards planning how to build your characther in the future and to know when you will be able to regenfight certain opponents.

So here it goes:
d - base damage
D - total damage written on char page
Att - attack multiplier in decimal fraction
P - poison strike level
R - regenaration
Res - relevant resistance in decimal fraction
L - level
M next to a variable means it is the monster's stat

You can regenfight if:
(d*Att*(1-ResM)+P*L)*R > DM*RM*(1-Res)

Gorgons get d*R in addition below dg%.

Also by moving the (1- Res) component to the left, and writing it more generally we can get certain builds' attrition function.

A vanilla monk with 3 att boosters vs resistless enemies has: (3*1,0*L)*2L*2 = 12L^2 attrition.
A similar gorgon has: (5*0,8L+5*L)*1L*4/3 = 12L^2 as well.

Writing it this way we can see what will happen when we add certain items and boons. Generally the same +damage or +% damage makes Monks better due to their double regen and higher resistance. When fighting against stuff with resists Gorgons shine more since posion doesn't get reduced by anything, and they can use dg after a certain point. By this we can also see that Gorgons are capable regenfighting foes with magical attack or curse, cuz they are less reliant on resist (also they need to hit thier enemies less times)...
Btw corrosion and damage reduction can also be added as linear components to these functions, as expected they are great in early levels, weaker later. Oh and as attrition functions are quadratic, by the time your level doubles your attrition grows 4x :P. Knowing this you can judge better when to engage into regenfighting.


I needed the testing for stuff like: does posion strike gets reduced by p/m. res.? or are every att% things work as they are expected (knocback still does wierd stuff time to time)...
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Re: Max CP pops out of a run

Postby Lujo on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:41 pm

^ On a completely unrelated bit of misty eyed nostalgia the old TT poison (shuts down all regen untill you attack something else) on a Monk is probably the silliest thing ever which stuck around in the game for a while. It was so busted that there wasn't an actual dungeon around that you could use to demonstrate just how silly it was. For a moderate taste of ye olde overkille (also known in certain circles as "The Hack") get a venom dagger, a few hits of TT poison strike and an APHEELSICK on a Monk ^^

That bit of bafoonery was a big part of why VGT got reworked several times, from the player perspective (harder and harder each time ^^)

And then immagine all that simply shutting down all regen on a monster obtainale by dumping 50 gold into TT right away and getting 10 back... Ah, the silly old times
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Re: Max CP pops out of a run

Postby flap on Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:54 am

Astral wrote:What I tried to say wasn't about casting APHEELSIK but using poison strike.


Ah, ok. It is not something that I know well (haven't unlocked the gorgon yet, nor used much TT boon or the venom dagger).That was an interresting reading.
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Re: Max CP pops out of a run

Postby Astral on Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:11 am

@Lujo: Oh yeah the old poison. That even made Lothlorien trivial in the alpha.
I wasn't here in the beta, but I had quite some fun with "The Hack" at least.
Btw I haven't even thanked you for all the kind words about my Hafling Transmuter strat, thanks, and I'm very happy that you like it :)

@Flap:Definately give it a try when you do, and thanks :)
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Re: Max CP pops out of a run

Postby Lujo on Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:55 am

^ Oh no need to thank me, I was so proud when I saw that because I gave you that random "arse-elbow-differentiation" brief on halflings and you went and made an atom bomb :)

Double the fun for me becuase Transmuters are sorta my favourite class. I went from not being able to get anything with them to figuring them out quite a bit on my own with no guides by banging my head against the game and taking the bugger through VGT on a dare without a clue of the, err, anatomy.

And, as you're aware of, ever since the trisword nerf halflings became my favourite race because of all the really unorthodox things they seem to enable. Also for the relaxing option of going "Screw conventional wisdom, I'mma potion spiking everything, mwhahahahahah!"

So I'm hella amused by all this :)

EDIT: Also, if halflings can "go Drac" via substance abuse, does that then mean Drac's message is "drugs are bad?"
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