Is CYDSTEPP broken?

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Is CYDSTEPP broken?

Postby GG Crono on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:40 pm

I really had to be the one to ask this. I love CYDSTEPPin' as much as the next dungeon crawler. But I have to wonder.

It's an extremely powerful tool. It can allow you a number of extra attacks, and for the physically-inclined classes, that counts for a lot. But is it too powerful? I've seen many comments about things being really hard amended with "unless you get CYDSTEPP". (Mind, if that answer is "yes", I have no idea what would make for a good solution.)
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Re: Is CYDSTEPP broken?

Postby PeaceChaser on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:08 pm

Some dungeons are difficult, even with CYDSTEP. I don't disagree that in the end it should be rebalanced somehow, but along with that dungeons, classes, and strategies need to be rebalanced also.

I'd say have it cost 8 mana, and every time the buff takes effect (you would have died, but CYDSTEP saved you), your max mana is reduced by 1. The CYDSTEP buff should also be separated from other death protections (fighter, turog, etc.) with CYDSTEP taking last priority.

This probably won't be popular though, as most players, myself included, really like CYDSTEP. Looking forward to see what everyone else thinks on this topic.
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Re: Is CYDSTEPP broken?

Postby bla0815 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:29 pm

Random idea: Increase its general manacosts and make it slightly cheaper the more health you have relative to your level. Idealy with a little steeper progression than the usual +10/lvl. It seems plausible that a generally tough guy needs less willpower to keep on fighting beyond his usual limits than the wimp, that is the rouge.
This would nerf sidestepping rogues and could still allow warlords to use it from the get go.
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Re: Is CYDSTEPP broken?

Postby Xanopticon on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:07 pm

I don't think it's too powerful/broken but mixed with Venom Sword, it might be. With these things you can take out almost any non-undead, non-poison/manaburn at almost any level as long as you have enough exploration regen. And I mean taking out level 8/9's with level 2/3/4's.
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Re: Is CYDSTEPP broken?

Postby FDru on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:11 pm

It's 100% of your attack damage for 10 mana, since all it does is grant you an extra attack. You still have to face the consequences of attacking, meaning weaken, mana burn etc. Since you survive the hit no matter what, I just consider it a "physical fireball".

I wouldn't bother with it if I find a HALPMEH glyph most of the time, because the mana is better spent on heals. Also if you have low-ish attack damage you're much better off spending mana on fireballs. CYDSTEP is great but not the end-all, be-all.
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Re: Is CYDSTEPP broken?

Postby Darvin on Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:06 am

Well, I think part of the issue is that the game is currently just flooded with high-damage bosses, and most of the good defensive combos are now gone.

I think this is a good comparison: HALPMEH versus CYDSTEPP. Let's presume a level 10 character (best-case scenario for HALPMEH). The HALPMEH glyph restores 30 hit points for 3 mana, or 10 HP per mana. Therefor, we conclude the break-even against CYDSTEPP as a defensive tool is 100 damage. Most bosses in hard and vicious deal far in excess of 100 damage, with the Slime Pit and Halls of Steel being the only noteworthy exceptions. And CYDSTEPP works equally well at all levels, while HALPMEH is worse if you're below level 10.

So, I think part of the problem is power creep. Bosses have gotten a lot stronger, while our defensive combos have actually gotten weaker (no more 20% resist items; now we have to suck a -2 mana penalty for 15% resist items, which TBH is really underpowered for anyone except berserkers and monks). CYDSTEPP has a natural scaling effect so it's gotten stronger along with the bosses, but the other defensive combos have not.
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Re: Is CYDSTEPP broken?

Postby Wargizmo on Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:00 am

I don't think it needs to be nerfed. The problem is only really with Rogues, I think otherwise sidestep is fine. The problem with rogues is the fact that in addition to the 2 sidesteps you also get a first strike, so you can get in at least 3-4 hits on any monster in the game, all at +50% damage, plus you often dodge as well allowing even more hits.

If they adjust rogues so that the +50% damage and dodge bonus disappears on the first hit after resurrection I think the glyph would be fine.
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Re: Is CYDSTEPP broken?

Postby Darvin on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:33 am

Perhaps rogues could be changed to something like +80% damage when at full health. CYDSTEPP would still be a great glyph for them, but not as strong as it is now, while the class overall gets a buff. Of course, then that opens up the abuse of intentionally pissing off Dracul to pull yourself down to 1 HP...
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Re: Is CYDSTEPP broken?

Postby Galefury on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:41 pm

CYDSTEPP is by far the most powerful glyph, there's no need to argue about that. It is one of the few ways to fight bosses with extreme damage (Avatar, Namtar, Bleaty) and it usually gives more bang per mana potion or explored tile than any other spell including HALPMEH, and it is the only glyph that gets you two extra attacks against any enemy at base mana due to precasting.

One of the things that make CYDSTEPP so good is that you can precast it. It doesn't just allow one extra attack with the normally available amount of mana, it allows two, or one in addition to whatever else you do with your full mana pool. Dispelling it on non-lethal attacks would make this less possible (it would still work on enemies that kill you from full HP). This would be a huge nerf of course, and precasting creates some interesting decisions. But eliminating precasting of CYDSTEPP is a much better nerf than increasing mana cost IMO.

Lets compare CYDSTEPP with other skills that get you an extra attack: GETINDARE and WEYTWUT. GETINDARE costs 3 mana and gets you one extra hit against enemies without first strike. Clean, simple and cheap. WEYTWUT works against enemies with first strike, but costs 7 mana and is blocked by magic resistance. Both of these extra attacks only work as killing blows. CYDSTEPP costs 10 mana, works against all enemies, and the extra attack does not need to be the killing blow. But you actually get attacked, which may cause weaken or other strategic effects. Also it is precastable, which means unlike the other two glyphs it gives you two extra attacks.

The comparison with HALPMEH is useful, but does not mention the advantages HALPMEH has over CYDSTEPP. First off, CYDSTEPP being the best glyph for getting many extra attacks is fine. One has to be the best, whether it is HALPMEH or CYDSTEPP does not matter. And HALPMEH has many advantages over CYDSTEPP. HALPMEH can get you an extra attack for just 3 or 6 mana if that is enough to let you survive a second attack. Also it quickly surpasses CYDSTEPP for resistant characters (with level 10 and 15% resistance it is often better than CYDSTEPP) and works great for wizards. It is also more suited to whittling down enemies while exploring, as it does not waste HP regen like CYDSTEPP would (unless you use BLUDTUPOWA).

Mana cost of CYDSTEPP affects at least four things: scalability (extra attacks per mana potion or explored tile), concurrent use with other glyphs (mostly GETINDARE), castability at base mana (which is 10), and use while worshiping Taurog. The only of these that might need a nerf is scalability (a bit stronger than HALPMEH in almost all cases, which as I argued above is fine IMO). However increasing mana cost would eliminate the possibility of using CYDSTEPP with GETINDARE for most chars, and would block Taurog worshipers from using it even earlier. Also most importantly it would block warlords from using it from the start, which is not good for a class feature. Same problem if the glyph is found early.

A possible nerf that only affects scalability is reducing the damage of your next attack after being saved from death (-50% for example). This penalizes repeated use but dodges the mana issues. It would also reduce the benefit from precasting, because the second extra attack would be weakened.

I think adding a strategic penalty to using CYDSTEPP or increasing the mana cost would be bad. If anything the mana cost could use a slight reduction, to encourage combining it with other glyphs. If mana cost is reduced scalability should be nerfed somehow of course.

I think dispelling CYDSTEPP on non-lethal hits, lowering mana cost to 8 and reducing damage of the next attack by 50% after being saved from death could work well. Reducing base damage of the next attack by 30% would be even better, as that would dodge all the issues with regular damage reduction (as seen with the alpha monk).
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Re: Is CYDSTEPP broken?

Postby q 3 on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:50 pm

I like the idea of tying Rogue's attack bonus to HP, although something like a 60% or 70% bonus when above 1/2 HP would probably be more balanced (and would leave more room for Dwarf Rogues to shine). Dracul is already broken by CYDSTEPP, since you can worship him, give him all your HP in exchange for ridiculous max MP, and then gleefully piss him off with CYDSTEPP over and over and the only thing he will do is reduce your max HP to 1 - which would be a problem for Warlords, but not for Rogues. It's good that he no longer instantly kills you when he's angry, but I do think that if your max HP is already 1 when you anger him, he should round down to 0...
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