Any hope for a tweak patch?

[Lujo]

[Tinker]

I've been thinking about the Dwarves. Especially in light of the context of: comparison Orc vs. Human (i.e. balancing of early-game permabonus vs. late game permabonus); Gnome vs. Elf parallel to Halfling vs. Dwarf (i.e. balancing of potion spike race vs. corresponding permabonus race); Elf vs. Dwarf (similar permabonuses, though both depend on other factors i.e. attack/spell power). Maybe it's worth another thread...

Anyway, here's my 2 cents.:
1. Reducing the dwarves CP threshold seems like the quick & easy solution. It would mesh the pattern nicely of permabonus being cheaper than potion (Gnome 90 vs. Elf 70; Halfling 80 so Dwarf could be, by the same token, cca. 60).
2. Changing the nature of the bonus to a flat +10 Health per conversion would significantly boost Dwarves early game (although not in ways that are not already available via Alchemist Srcoll or JJ etc.).
3. Some sort of hybrid solution (i.e. flat 5 Health on top of the current +1 Health/level bonus) might also be viable.

[Astral]

I tried a few VT runs with Gnome Sorcerers of MA to better see your point Lujo, and now rereading your comments I noticed you were talking about Gobbos

When you wrote about this build, you didn't mention why is it a pure caster. It's not due to laziness 'why should I bother', but more like a restriction. A MA sorcerer has unboosted health, and simply can't soak a hit from higher level guys. A sorcerer who can't tank hits... Good, 2/3 of your class traits are thrown out of the window.

Due to this, I could never get better than 1-2 level higher kills without wasting a consumable. Sure, I could have used some, but then the thoughtless play no longer holds up. Also there are quite a few monsters who do punish spellcasters this weak. Anything with increased health (dragonspawns, zombies, meatmen), magical resistance (goats, golems) or mosters with interesting flavors (cowardly enemies in corridors, cave snakes, shades, burn vipers, trolls with high health and res. etc.). If you needed the Gettindare hit for the kill, you can add firststrikers to the list as well.

Another thing that bothered me is that due to the build's inefficiency I was running out of blackspace early. Coupled with the ho-hum leveling, I had less popcorn and a lower level than usual by the end.

So to sum it up, Gnome Sorcerers are not as good in thoughtless play as you made it out to be. You may be tempted to do high level kills with potions, but it introduces the optimization of resource management between early and lategame. Misjudge it, and you will fail against your bosses. Another problem is the blackspace running out early, which could leave you stuck at low level being unable to do anything.

Some dungeons could annoy you with their gimmicks too. A labyrinth blocking you off while trying to refill mana. Getting boxed in by mana burn plants or newly formed walls in SP forcing you to waste popcorn/Dings.

Now let's move on to the Goblin variant. You may have not noticed it, but choosing a Goblin is the best way of covering most of the weaknesses of the Sorcerer MA combo. The Goblin bonus helps directly solve the exp situation, and if used to set up dings during high level monster kills, it creates bonus xp too. You don't have to waste your glyphs either, convert something from the shops. The constant dinging will make sure you don't waste much blackspace either.

But is it a thoughtless combo? No. You interact with less of your class features, but you need to play your race at higher efficiency. The Goblin bonus is easy to misuse, players who want to succeed need to realize it's best used granularly in setting up level catapults.

In my eyes it's just like a caster version of playing a Taurog Berzerker. Simple, but not foolproof. Taurog has Goo as an obstacle, MA has the SMM. Though have you tried Taurog Half-dragons? They sidestep every possible problem. I guess it's the same with MA Bloodmages.

I'm interested in your response Lujo, did I miss something important now?

@Tinker
I like all your ideas, but only the 1st is workable. The 2. is broken with B2P (more than any god boons, and they are limited and need dedication), the 3. is not simplistic enough.

@Everyone
What do you think about the usefulness of Dwarfs? Also do you have any reliable VT strategies for them?

[Tinker]

I think that the Gnome Sorcerer of Mystera is a very strong and resilient caster build. I've had consistent success with it even on Vicious runs (my only VT Vicious win to date was with one of these buggers). They play a bit differently versus the Elf Wizard of Jehora. Main difference is: don't stretch yourself to go for super-high level kills. I know that the EWJ can go for 4-5 levels higher kills, but the GSM should contend with 1-2 level higher kills (except for soft and squishy monsters like Wraiths). No need to over-explore: it's perfectly fine to conveniently +1-level kill your way up to Level 8+. You will not need so much popcorn in the end, because unlike the EWJ which desperately needs level-ups to spike, the GSM can spike more smoothly. With Refreshment, each glyph will give you an almost-refill, which considering the effective mana pool in the 22-25 range, is pretty good. GSM plays very relaxed, very balanced, very strong. Using up 1-2 Mana potions to go for a kill 3+ levels higher is usually ok. That said, on Naga City I wouldn't spend any resources topside. Boon order is standard Magic (1) -> Mystic Balance -> Magic (2) -> Refreshment -> etc.

I see no benefit in the Goblin. What you say looks good on paper, but the reality is, thanks to Refreshment you don't want to spend too many glyphs during the early levels, you'd rather save it up for the boss(es), which implies that you get maybe a level-up out of them - that hardly compares to the extra potions in spike.

I cannot comment on the Dwarves. I like them conceptually, but I haven't found a single character concept that would not be better off being a Halfling. The closest candidates are the Rogue and the Bloodmage, but Orc Rogue and Gnome Bloodmage are, generally, still straight-up better, so even these classes are exceptions only in the sense that it's finally not the Halflings that dwarf the Dwarves... I experimented with the Dwarven Priest of Dracul with some success, but I was afraid to do the math because I'm sure it also doesn't measure up to the Halfling Priest of Dracul.

[Blovski]

Tinker, Dwarf Paladin of GG with Fireheart (a.k.a/ Healthmonster) can beat Naga City and Dragon Isles and some VT dungeons as well. I'm pretty sure that's the only combination that I'm satisfied is stronger than a comparable halfling. Arguably purist rogues, as well

[Astral]

I see, so I expected them to be something else than what they are. They are not the standard roll-through the dungeon build, but more like guys who have their endgame fixed, and therefore don't care much about power-leveling and popcorn bowling.

When I advised Goblins, I meant them to convert shop junk instead of glyphs. And the main point in playing a Goblin isn't getting +1 ding by converting, but reaching higher levels and setting up more dings thanks to efficient leveling. But I haven't tried it yet, so I may be wrong about it actually working.

I have found a single strat, where Dwarfs are actually optimal, but I'm unhappy with it. It takes a lot of effort and only highlights how bad dwarfs are. And I'm also curious what are the uses of Dwarfs I haven't even considered before.

[Tinker]

[Astral]

It's a playstyle thing, but in VT runs I don't like going for lower than 2 level higher kills. At lvl 1 it's okay to kill lvl2s, but later I focus on doing only lvl 2-3 higher ones. For me, a strat is good if I can constantly do these without consumables, or even better ones.

That's why I can't appreciate only 1-2 lvl higher kills. I'm so used to having good kills, many dings during boss fights that it just doesn't measure up. Also if I was content with 1-2 lvl higher kills I'd just play a random Orc with some extra % damage.
When I'm looking for strats I want an excuse for not picking Orcs, or at least want to try a very unique playstyle.

Comparing Goblins and Gnomes by NC results can be misleading, since NC is such a unique scenario and it also has a lot of fixed elements. I test strats in random VT hard dungeons.

Here's how choosing a Goblin can benefit you:
i) When you pull a level catapult by converting that saves the popcorn you would've consumed
ii) Done well, going for bigger kills will never cut you from bonus XP. The key is doing it in an escalating fashion. Start at +1, then go for +2s, +3s and maybe one +4 in the end (still in leveling phase). +5s should be avoided unless you ding on every kill like in the EWJ strat. Or it's the boss you're going to take down.
In case of goblins, you can aim 1 level higher, since you'll level up in the process. And all these bonus XP means you had to kill less monsters, and saved up more popcorn for more dings during boss fights. It will also show on your final level. When you level efficiently there's no run where you can't reach lvl 10.
iii) A Gnome drinking a mana potion get's 40% mana refill. A Goblin dinging restores 100% (if it wasn't VT, the health restore mattered too) and gets additional fireball power. The Gnome loses endgame spiking power with each manapotion quaffed, but the Goblin does not, since the tiny XP bonuses are meaningless late, but if you're using it constantly for level catapulting you're generating extra resources you wouldn't have otherwise.

One very obvious benefit of Goblins over Gnomes is that they can grab parched without trouble
Though I'm basing it on other Goblin builds, having never tried the Gob Sorc.

In my opinion the Gob Fighter is a bad combo, when playing a Goblin you should always try to make your character stronger so the refills do matter. Fighters already level easily, they didn't need further help on that.
So the Gob Sorc should be powerful.

One fun combo I can recommend is the Goblin Transmuter. You can spellfight a monster, trigger SW and level up due to it, and continue the fight with completely refilled stats. Very good spiking. General VT rules still apply, so make sure by Gods/Items that you can tank hits to benefit from melee damage.

[Tinker]

[Astral]

For the sake of argument, let's imagine that you buy 190 CP worth of junk with a Goblin, and use it to gain +5, and +6 XP for two separate level catapults. It's more convenient than killing popcorn, since you can be further from the xp bar when using it. Other times you use regular popcorn for the level catapults, because you can afford it.

A Gnome trying to replicate this many level catapults will have popcorn issues, or is forced to drink mana potions. Any mana potion you drink during the leveling phase is a mana potion less during the endgame. Main point is, Gnomes trying to constantly level catapult have to face the opportunity cost of it, while for Goblins there's no opportunity cost for doing the same. That hypothetical +11 exp is meaningless lategame, but earlygame it can be 200% mana refill. And it isn't lost either, you gain it and have it permanently.

The Goblin has at least 1 more ding over a Gnome. Just by the shopjunk and 4 glyphs you get ~56 XP. You could convert prepped blacksmith items, invest the boss gold, heck if everything fails you can convert Burndayraz for a ding too.

Also it may seem that I'm needlessly obsessed with saving up popcorn, but popcorn has many uses and in a way it's a safety net against bad RNG. You could comsume popcorn under a different god for piety/lifesteal health, try to use it for blue bead mana, use the dings for the health refill part vs SMM etc.

Speaking of SMM, how difficult is it for a GSM on VT runs?