Review of the demo

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Re: Review of the demo

Postby metroid composite on Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:16 pm

Herborist wrote:Not every class uses fireballs,


There's four attack glyphs (Healing, Fireballs, and Death Protection, and knockback are all ways to sink mana to deal more damage). Any class that picks up fireballs and doesn't have another attacking glyph WILL use fireballs (except Half-Dragon). If they don't, they're wasting their MP stat.

Now, there are classes for whom Fireballs are not the most mana-efficient spell, I agree. Berserker, for instance, is more mana-efficient when using CYDSTEPP. I assume that's what you mean by "not every class uses fireballs". But the thing is, by that definition neither Wizard nor Sorceror uses fireballs either....

not ever class has the same auto-attack modifiers (fire strike, +initial damage, +damage after 1/2 hp, etc.).


...Wait, you're counting those, but you're not counting the fact that Sorceror does extra retaliation damage after its been damaged? This is mechanically important. It's the reverse of Thief, where your extra damage will help you when you're first-striking a lower-level enemy, but not when you're doing regen attrition; instead with Sorceror you have a harder-time first-strike OHKOing lower level foes for the level up steamroll, but an easier time with regen attrition.

There's one or two ways that could currently happen, but I don't recall any of those methods being available in the Swamp. I'll try recreate your error and see what I come up with.


If it helps to repro the bug, I was using Wizard, probably using Human, using PISSORF a lot, and then switched to BURNDAYRAZ once the enemy I had been knocking into the boss died, and once I'd used up my mana potions on that I went to attack the boss and was like "Wait, zero damage?" I also had used WEYTWUT to get the boss next to a wall thinking I was going to knock the boss into the walls (until I realized "oh right, PISSORF still has a 40% hit rate even though it deals full damage").

Still thinking about that. It's quite possible that it will be moving back to 2, and I'll be using elf characters for the next while to test that.


2 mana per conversion makes it...probably slightly stronger in the abstract than Human or Dwarf (in that I think Elf Fighter is probably the best Fighter build in the freeware--unless you know the boss ahead of time). But elf is not significantly stronger--after doing calculations I've...actually used Human/Dwarf/Elf in relatively even percentages in the freeware. But using the same calculations for the E3 demo...I don't use Elf at all. (Dwarf for Berserker and Rogue, Human for all other classes).

Have you considered the following: right now, your conversion system is "get to 100, get a stat". This kind of system would allow for something half-way between 1 and 2; like for mana you could do "For every 70 conversion points, you get +1 mana".

We actually want to get male and female versions of the characters into the final version, resources permitting. :)


Yay, thanks ^_^

The wizard's +1 glyph is currently always a fireball to increase the chances of him finding it early (unless you're willing to fork out for the Glyph Magnet). Still trying to decide if players would value the increased fireball find chance or the overall "glyph spread" more, especially now that you've discovered the PISORF's extreme usefulness.


There are some classes where I would probably value an extra fireball on the map (Thief, for instance). But...it's Wizard. Wizard has glyph sight, and thus tends to get all the glyphs on the map by level 2 or 3 anyway. Wizard almost certainly wants glyph-spread.
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Re: Review of the demo

Postby flap on Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:14 pm

A suggestion, regarding interface, and extra clicks :
It has been noted that some click are not useful (there is no choice behind them). There is for example the case of potions : we are likely to let them lie around the floor, and go on the top of them just to drink. So there should be a option to drink while they are on the floor (instead of clicking to pick them up, then click once more to drink). Or even worse : a right click on the tile where they are to move there, and drink them in one action. (1 click instead of 3)

I'll let you imagine any monster / feature causing potions left on the floor to disappear in some dungeons...
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Re: Review of the demo

Postby Aequitas on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:05 pm

So you don't ever forsee a situation where your inventory is full, none of the things in it are potions, and you want to heal? I'd say that's a pretty 'choice' driven situation right there.
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Re: Review of the demo

Postby flap on Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:02 am

Hmm, ok.
Then, you could allow to drink from the floor, if you have a free slot.

Edit (to avoid double post) :
The other I was mentioning that I preferred the freeware way to go into dungeons : you can hoover over dungeons to see the description, then prepare (choose your race/class), then click on the dungeon to go.
I liked it best because it gives the feeling of preparing, and then actually go.

But playing a bit more the demo today, I also understood another reason why I prefer the freeware way : you don't have to change your settings every new dungeon. The class/race you have selected is still the same. It is easier to go a few times in a row with the same setting in one dungeon. Or just change one parameter. So basically, venturing in a new dungeon might be 1 click away, and 3 at worst.
While the way DD demo is now, there are between 5 and 13 clicks every time.

Hey, I am not complaining or anything else. That's just to let you know the feelings from one player among others.
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Re: Review of the demo

Postby Nandrew on Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:37 am

flap wrote:But playing a bit more the demo today, I also understood another reason why I prefer the freeware way : you don't have to change your settings every new dungeon. The class/race you have selected is still the same. It is easier to go a few times in a row with the same setting in one dungeon. Or just change one parameter. So basically, venturing in a new dungeon might be 1 click away, and 3 at worst.
While the way DD demo is now, there are between 5 and 13 clicks every time.


It's actually a weird little thing we're still wrestling with -- the concept of entrance ease versus scumming reduction.

Having dungeon preparations and whatnot is a nice extra in many ways (at least, people seem to enjoy it) but in the full Kingdom system, we want to make each dungeon session a *little* more of an investment so that people don't go in, say "oh, these conditions aren't the ideal ones that I've been minmaxing for" and just reroll the dungeon -- which the freeware was very permissive of. :P

It's rather tricky, because we understand that the high turnover of the game is valuable (it's one of the core ideas originally built on), but we're really hoping that we can balance speed with more of a consideration that players should play with what they're given and accept a particular run's challenges in the same way that someone heavily invested in a typical full-length Roguelike session would -- without the "full length" nature attached.

It doesn't show up as much in the demo (because gold levels are restocked every time, people can reroll at will) but in the full version, taking on a particularly vicious challenge dungeon will require a very heavily stocked adventurer, a considerable gold investment and an attitude of "every run is valuable, make 'em count". ;)

Of course, now I'm talking about the upper end, but I think the idea of respecting an individual dungeon's value is something that we want to encourage in all levels of play.
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Re: Review of the demo

Postby flap on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:16 am

Ok. Thank you for that insight !

So lets wait a few more months, and we'll see what you'll come up with ! Looks promising.
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Re: Review of the demo

Postby metroid composite on Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:18 pm

Aequitas wrote:So you don't ever forsee a situation where your inventory is full, none of the things in it are potions, and you want to heal? I'd say that's a pretty 'choice' driven situation right there.


Well...I tend to just auto-hoard potions and mana potions until the boss, and since I start with two in my inventory, that slot is always reserved....

Now, the one interesting decision is...maybe I should consume the two potions, free up the slot for use in the midgame, and then convert a glyph closer to when I fight the boss so that I can pick up potions again. If the extra slot+potion use in the midgame gains me a level against the boss then that's...*runs some calculations* ...still totally not worth it (unless you're using regen tactics against the boss). It's better to keep those two potions and fight the boss one level lower--you'll be able to deal 5% more damage to the boss on average.


If you want this to be an interesting decision, then players need to start without potions already in their inventory.
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Re: Review of the demo

Postby Hammerfan on Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:28 pm

metroid composite wrote:
Aequitas wrote:So you don't ever forsee a situation where your inventory is full, none of the things in it are potions, and you want to heal? I'd say that's a pretty 'choice' driven situation right there.


Well...I tend to just auto-hoard potions and mana potions until the boss, and since I start with two in my inventory, that slot is always reserved....

Now, the one interesting decision is...maybe I should consume the two potions, free up the slot for use in the midgame, and then convert a glyph closer to when I fight the boss so that I can pick up potions again. If the extra slot+potion use in the midgame gains me a level against the boss then that's...*runs some calculations* ...still totally not worth it (unless you're using regen tactics against the boss). It's better to keep those two potions and fight the boss one level lower--you'll be able to deal 5% more damage to the boss on average.


If you want this to be an interesting decision, then players need to start without potions already in their inventory.



This could be done by instead of giving the players a forced potion kit, giving them the choice of some other free item or bonus instead.

The extra dungeon gold for example, could be removed from the Theif building and instead given as an alternative to the potions. (this would also make the "extra gold" preparation a lot more usefull)
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Re: Review of the demo

Postby Nandrew on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:50 am

Hammerfan wrote:The extra dungeon gold for example, could be removed from the Theif building and instead given as an alternative to the potions. (this would also make the "extra gold" preparation a lot more usefull)


Bear in mind that the gold allowance works differently in the E3 demo -- your amount is reset and you take everything in with you.

In the full version, you'll have a hefty stock of Kingdom gold and only a limited amount of raw cash that you're allowed to take into a dungeon with you. The "extra gold" prep is a way of spending the Kingdom funds to sneak in a little extra money. ;)
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Re: Review of the demo

Postby Hammerfan on Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:48 pm

Nandrew wrote:
Hammerfan wrote:The extra dungeon gold for example, could be removed from the Theif building and instead given as an alternative to the potions. (this would also make the "extra gold" preparation a lot more usefull)


Bear in mind that the gold allowance works differently in the E3 demo -- your amount is reset and you take everything in with you.

In the full version, you'll have a hefty stock of Kingdom gold and only a limited amount of raw cash that you're allowed to take into a dungeon with you. The "extra gold" prep is a way of spending the Kingdom funds to sneak in a little extra money. ;)


Oh right, I forgot about that...

Still, having an option to choose between a couple of free preparations would add a lot more depth.
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