Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

[General_Milky]

The problem with those is that later dungeons in the east would totally fall apart if there was a way to wipe Frostbite out without striking another monsters. Not one, but THREE bosses, one of which is vicious, rely on the fact that frostbite will just build and build and build until/unless you can find someone to vent it off on. If CA could just clear it, for example,those fights are left WIDE open for effortless trivialization.

Also, nice work on that Curious quest. IMO, The True Lord is by far the hardest of the "early" EE quests. The vicious quests are harder, but you've already done the worst it can throw at you until maybe the "beat an Eastern dungeon with all 4 church classes" quest.

[shade_of_ox]

There are arguments for and against Frostbite wipes. Technically adding ways to wipe Frostbite to god boons isn't really changing the base game (since there is no way to get those effects in the base game anyway). However Frostbite is balanced precisely by the fact that it can quickly get out of hand and become almost impossible to remove. I think Crusader being immune is out of the question (imagine if we had a class that was immune to damage, that's basically the same thing). I'm more open to CA and Cleansing wiping Frostbite but Cleansing probably can't wipe more than one or two stacks (otherwise it trivializes EB Curious too hard).

Glad you're enjoying the mod so far! I'm interested in your opinion on the Troll, once you unlock him.

[thzfunnymzn]

Oh, I agree that having other methods to handle Frost makes things easier. However, I bring it up because I think that's consistent with the design of the normal game. For example, Crusader virtually ignores the gimmicks of Cursed Oasis and Ick Swamp, there's a million and two ways to bypass Dragon Isle's gimmick (the Matron's guards), and Gobbo Assassin of TT ignores the very gimmick of Desktop Dungeons itself.

I actually figured Crusader having Frostbite immunity would be fairly innocuous. He's only one specific class who half his gimmick revolves around similar status immunities (again, Cursed Oasis & Ick Swamp), unlike a god boon which would be accessible to any character. Also, his innate Curse immunity + prepped Burn Salve = the normal game's equivalent of Frostbite immunity anyways. (Potion interaction with newer statuses comes to mind as well)

As a god boon, Cleansing came to mind, but "Remove one stack of Frostbite" seems laughable, seeing as how it tends to pile up really high in later dungeons. While I did mention CA, maybe Enlightment would be more appropriate for a Frostbite wipe? You could certainly argue the aesthetic appropriateness of it, it's mechanically close to a Curse Wipe anyways, and CA wiping Frostbite doesn't match the fact that JJ doesn't set Frostbite in his jerk phase.

Mind you, I haven't played enough, so I'm really not in a place to talk right now. (Same with Heretic. Seems mad powerful, but I need to try him in Vicious first). Still, thought I'd mention the topic.

Thanks, by the way, General Milky. The True Lord was a nightmare. Took a Human Paladin in, only won with near-perfect Dracul play, plus some early luck with Wonafyt & the unconvertible Troll Heart. Taurog may have worked, dunno. EM and JJ failed, and I didn't trust GG, Binlor, or TT to pull it off. Definitely looking forward to playing around with Curious dungeons.

shade, Troll looks interesting from what I've seen you play.

[shade_of_ox]

Well yes, but I would argue that it's actually poor design to have a class feature or item that lets the player completely ignore an aspect of the game. Soul Orb and Viper Ward/HALPMEH are not particularly well designed in this respect, in my opinion. Just consider how polarizing it is to find Viper Ward against, say, Jormungandr. The entire point of DD and especially the mod is to force the player to deal with each effect as they come, with no cop-outs. I mean, just think about how trivial Everfrost Peak (if you've played it) would be if the character was immune to frostbite.

I think adding a frost wipe to any GG boons is a big problem since it trivializes EB and EB Curious where GG is one of the best possible gods anyway. CA is more balanced, but it's honestly such a marginal difference (and again, Jehora is already quite good for clearing Frostbite thanks to the big HP bar) that I don't think it is worth breaking the current design pattern of not editing base game content at all just for that. There are quite a lot of ways to mitigate Frostbite as is, anyway.

The True Lord is probably the most difficult of the Curious dungeons up until the Vicious. Meaty Madness and Unbalanced are also quite tricky. As for your question, it applies to fireballs as well, but fireballs deal -2 damage per level so it's not the best glyph for the item.

[thzfunnymzn]

Just to re-iterate, I'm not definitively holding to the suggestions I've stated, as I've bought up the idea mostly from an aesthetic and consistency perspective. Despite my joke, I'm not actually complaining about Frostbite's difficulty, nor am I saying anything about the balance. I recognize I have no right to talk about either until fully playing it. (Same with my initial statement about Heretic). However, I am still maintaining some argument as I think there is still something to defend here.

1) Even if we grant that Soul Orb, Viper Ward, etc, are poor design because of shutting down aspects of the game, fact of the matter is, that is part of Desktop Dungeon's design. Adopting a different philosophy for new statuses introduced in Extreme Edition will subtly shift Extreme Edition away from Desktop Dungeons. The example I give with Crusader is that, if West, North, and Central also introduce new statuses that may or may not have aesthetic reasons for him to be immune too, with god boons also doing nothing in relation to new statues, then Crusader has been subtly nerfed in Extreme Edition, since his entire gimmick rests upon status immunities and converting between multiple gods (or getting an easy desecration that another class couldn't get). I'm not definitively saying this has happened: I haven't played enough to make that judgment. But I am bringing up the point of staying consistent with Desktop Dungeon's design philosophy.

2) I'm not granting that Viper Ward is poorly designed, even for Jormungandr. Because Jormungandr is fought in the early game, when the player very likely has neither Viper Ward nor HALPMEH, and when the new player is still just getting used to the game. Mid-game items breaking an early game boss is nothing exciting.

On the other hand, what about Namtar or the Matron's guards? They have Poison and Mana Burn strikes (at times), but they ain't trivialized by said items. Furthermore, there's the question of whether or not its prudent to buy said items, instead of another item that presents itself.

Now, something like Gobbo Assassin of TT, yes, he definitely ignores too many aspects of the game for my liking. Same with Yendor (except for Goatperson or Rat Monarch). Enough so that I don't consider Gobbo Assassin wins to be true wins outside of the very high level dungeons. I definitely wouldn't want something that crazy in EE, though they are still part of DD's design, and that's not trivial. As for whether or not the Frostbite clears I've mentioned are in the Viper Ward category or Yendor category, I guess I'll find out when I actually play the later levels.

3) I agree that Frostbite immunity would roll all over Everfrost Peak. But I can't bring myself to let go of my position because of that, when something like Crusader in the Ick Swamp / Cursed Oasis currently exists anyways. Or a lvl.10 Assassin vs the Matron's guards. Some classes just simply break certain dungeons; it's probably why some of the base game's quests involve using lesser used class / race / dungeon combos. (Tbf, Crusader doesn't null Ick Swamp's bosses' Weaken Strike. Still ignoring the flower gimmick there isn't trivial). Can't comment on EB / GG synergy, was partly thinking that a 100 Piety one-time Frostbite wipe is the furthest one can get from anything op, as it's more a nice perk on something you have other reasons to go for anyways. (IIRC, you're removed from the altar in the last part of EB, so Enlightment can't help you there).

4) Isn't DR + Slow Strike (Platemail, ideally) the only really good way to mitigate Frostbite? Or are you saying that it's relatively easy to handle, even with just the intended way. Or maybe I'll just find out the hard way. >_> lol

For my question above, thanks. As for its application, Magician gets Heavy Fireball on Slowed enemies. Instant max Burn stack = more damage with physical & making up for Fireball's reduced damage, while delivering another -1 to enemy regen. On paper, it sounds like a beautiful way to regen fight high level foes with good attacks from both red bar and blue bar. Maybe it'll be garbage in practice though (Earthmother might have something to say about that though).

Also, thanks for the discussion. Also...I'm hoping to get Donkey Kong: Tropical Freeze in the morning, so don't be surprised if I don't follow up with more Extreme Edition playing for a bit.

Also, thanks, mod creators. Especially looking forward to Curious dungeons (hard mode without stat inflation...which does go against design consistency I talked about above, now doesn't it, >_>). Nothing against y'all meant by anything here. In fact, I wouldn't have ever started a discussion if I didn't love this mod all ready.

[General_Milky]

Most of the Frostbite dungeons always guarantee a good enemy to vent it off on even without the DR interaction. Undying Sculptors in FF, Frozen Trolls and Goblins in EP, Kinsmen in FB, so on so on.

Speaking of Magician, try Whurgarbl with them. Their conditional heavy fireball can turn that thing into a positively scary damage increase. Basically the offense version of Platemail.

[shade_of_ox]

[srid]

This is an interesting discussion. Dropping my two cents here:

I must say that I don't really understand why the Crusader has poison+manaburn+curse immunity. It's not like he really need it or anything. By comparison the Vampire being immune to poison and mana burn makes much more sense to me as he is undead and allows him to use more bloodcows.

I don't think that giving immunities to Poison and Mana Burn via items is a particular bad design: they have a reasonable cost, are small and have a high conversion value, which shows that they aren't that good for experienced players, and yet they allow average players (and even experienced players) to get them in some circumstances where it would be complicated without them (feeling parched + GoatPerson )
Also, as Shade pointed out, Poison and Mana Burn are quite extreme and frequent debuff which is also why regular potion heal them.

The Crusader isn't immune to every debuff BTW, there is no immunity for corrosion or weakening (some might argue that the Rat Monarch doesn't really care about weakening, but he isn't immune). So it doesn't really shocked me to have no immunity for frostbite or Unstable or Riposte. Plus this is the EXTREME edition so we don't want player to get away with cheap Gobbo Assassin tricks or stuff like that .

You probably didn't reach that item yet, but there is one EE item that grants total immunity to the next strike with debuffs once per level, which goes in the direction you wanted.

For the South, we considered making a new trait that would work like a stronger form of poison, and would have been healed by health potions and level ups, but we moved away from that.

Also, if GG's cleansing were able to remove a EE debuff, then for consistency he would have to grant piety for that debuff too, wouldn't it?

[shade_of_ox]

Eh, I wouldn't necessarily say so. Cleansing removes Corrosion and Weakening but you don't gain piety for getting corroded or weakened. I think GG specifically rewards poison because it's a physical trial and mana burn because it's a spiritual trial, at least thematically.

[srid]