Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoilers)

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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby Darvin on Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:54 am

That's...actually not true at all...

On normal dungeon sure, on boss hive I disagree. Most classes aren't going to be able to reliably take on level 2 monsters at level 1 without a good item or glyph. Vampire is in the same boat in this regard, except that he's the sole class that can afford to quaff his potions that early.

And sure, Vamp can still pump out about 450 damage at level 5 with potions and fireballs and first strike, but not the 1300 we're used to from level 8 Vamps.

Maybe you won't be able to take on that level 10 boss, but you could easily take on that level 8 monster and gain another level, then take on a level 9 monster and gain another level, and now you're a level 7. The Vampire's combination of first strike, life steal, and a ridiculous number of fireballs means there's a long list of monsters that he can take on with a substantial level disadvantage.

Once he gains momentum, Vampire is home clear. It's all about identifying the highest level monster you can beat, then beating the crap out of it. Rinse and repeat until the highest level you can take on is "10".

Also, has anyone been able to clear the hive of all the monsters. Some of the tough ones are ones with high health or resistances.

Done it as Vampire, Transmuter, Monk, and Half-Dragon. If you get lucky and random weak monsters for your level 9's then this both greatly reduces the difficulty of taking them down plus gives you a great source of (relatively) easy XP. A level 9 goo blob is probably out of the question, much less on top of all the level 8's and 7's, but a level 9 bandit will probably give you an extra level and make those level 8's and 7's easy prey.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby bkteer on Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:52 am

How you complete the dungeon with both monk and half dragon? I find myself sincerly lacking the dmg to take on the boss most of the time.

For me i kind of lucked out and was able to complete the dungeon with vampire, transmuter, rogue and assassin.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby TigerKnee on Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:06 am

The thing about Monk is that you need to remember it basically regenerates HP four times faster than other classes of the same level, so you should start punching the boss before running out of tiles, not after you explored the entire map.

Mathematically, there are certain items that are better on the monk, such as Dwarven Gauntlets and the resistance items. Worshipping Dracul is also good for bloodshield. Helpmeh is probably much better than Fireball though you still want the later for any wraiths (one of Monk's weakness, along with Poison and Nagas).

Some bosses Monks don't do well against (TOWER OF GOO) but it's generally pretty good with some minor luck with items.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby Darvin on Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:13 pm

For half-dragon, I got CYDSTEPP as my glyph and was able to use that to punch through the level 9's, get some more experience rolling and get up to the higher levels. Remember to take advantage of your magic attack; Goo Blobs and Wraiths are easy prey. Similar story to the monk, except that was APHEELSIK that let me make efficient use of his regen bonus so I could save more tiles for fighting higher-end monsters. I also can add Assassin to the list of classes I've 100% cleared the Boss Hive with; worshipped Pactmaker and was playing goblin for extra experience, and was able to get to level 10 meaning an instant kill on every remaining monster.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby metroid composite on Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:07 am

Nice! You're way ahead of me on kill-all-enemy runs (did a couple of attempts with Monk, Paladin, and Transmuter, and got it with a Earthmother worshiping Monk. Granted, I petrified two level 1 enemies because of Earthmother, so I suppose technically I haven't done it with Monk, either. ...Damnit!)

Darvin wrote:On normal dungeon sure, on boss hive I disagree. Most classes aren't going to be able to reliably take on level 2 monsters at level 1 without a good item or glyph. Vampire is in the same boat in this regard, except that he's the sole class that can afford to quaff his potions that early.


Except Vampire typically can't take on level 1 enemies in the boss hive when they're level 1. And it's not like the situation is much better at level 2; the average level 2 enemy has 30 HP. So...to take out an equal levelled enemy generally takes 13 HP (two fireballs and an attack--actually, they might as well just attack--attacks are still usually more cost efficient than fireballs at this low a level, even for Vampire). Which means you can only kill one level 2 enemy. Typical level 3 enemies have 52 HP, which means you can't kill them at all at level 2.

If there's one class that really hates all the enemies doubling in HP, it's Vampire, because they get a fixed amount of resources per level, and now they need to burn twice as much.

Maybe you won't be able to take on that level 10 boss, but you could easily take on that level 8 monster and gain another level, then take on a level 9 monster and gain another level, and now you're a level 7. The Vampire's combination of first strike, life steal, and a ridiculous number of fireballs means there's a long list of monsters that he can take on with a substantial level disadvantage.


Well, the 450 calculation assumed potion use; without that it's probably more like 220, which, honestly, doesn't kill most level 8 enemies (close, mind you). And a level 5 vamp killing a level 8 enemy doesn't always get a level up: it's only 20 exp, and 25 is needed between level 5 and level 6.

You can use potions for more level ups, and in the case of Vamp that...honestly might be merited because of the ridiculous amount they gain from a level up. Although I'm...not 100% sold on using your potions before the boss for extra level ups. A level 5 Vamp with 3 potions can burst 450. A level 7 vamp with 0 potions can burst 425. Although hmm...I suppose they do gain a few bloodstains...hm, yeah, +15% health closes that 25 damage gap. Yeah, you're right, I've been doing Vampire wrong, and should burn all my potions on levelling up before fighting the boss.

I also can add Assassin to the list of classes I've 100% cleared the Boss Hive with;


Oh, haha, now that you mention it, Assassin is the obvious class choice for a kill-all-enemies run. I feel dumb for not thinking of it now.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby bkteer on Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:02 pm

I think the most luck based will actually have to be the rogue....at lvl 1 you pray you don't meet any vampires else it's an instant death. Once he's past lvl 1 he has it easier due to his first strike and dodge.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby metroid composite on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:57 pm

bkteer wrote:I think the most luck based will actually have to be the rogue....at lvl 1 you pray you don't meet any vampires else it's an instant death. Once he's past lvl 1 he has it easier due to his first strike and dodge.


Oh well yes: Rogue in the boss hive is a special case. It's noteworthy that my number of resets for beating the Boss Hive looked something like...

14 classes: 0 resets
Thief, Tinker, Vampire: 1 resets*
Changeling: 3 resets**
Rogue: 10-30 resets

So...yes, in the boss hive Rogue has things a lot worse than Vamp.


*Certainly in the case of Thief I seem to recall this was exceptionally bad luck; I don't remember that run too well, but I think it was "locked in by high-level monsters". Vampire was luck-based--I lost at level 1 I think--not a whole lot I could do. Tinker...there was definitely a huge play mistake--I forgot about Animated Armor not being easy fireball bait so wasted a bunch of regen tiles. Compounded with my choosing Elf, which is arguably a poor race choice for Tinker--Human is better due to the kind of items that are common. Finally, mix in the boss being Iron Man when my only magic was fireballs and as mentioned I was an Elf.
**In the defence of Changeling, the first place I ever used it was the Boss Hive, and I was literally learning as I went, so I hadn't yet figured the tricks that make Changeling good. I'd probably beat Boss Hive first attempt with changeling if I were to try it again....
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby Darvin on Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:12 am

How on earth did you go 14 rounds without getting a single gimp situation popping up? Whether it's a level 5 blocking the only hallway exit or just a bad combination of high-level monsters, there are just a whole range of scenarios that can make the game unwinnable. Heck, on boss hive there's little margin for error with exploration tiles so just where you choose to explore could randomly turn things one way or another. I don't think I've ever gone 14 matches (even on normal) without fumbling.

Ironically, though, I've played Vampire on the boss hive 4 times now and have yet to fail with him. Rogue, I'm just not going to try. Not worth the frustration, even though it's my favourite class.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby bkteer on Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:21 am

i suspect it may be due to the gauntlet runs. Apparantly gauntlet runs past lvl 15 are as hard or harder than the boss hive runs.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby metroid composite on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:27 pm

Tried to do a Rogue kill-all-enemies run last night (because Rogue is surprisingly decent in the boss hive if you can survive past level 1). I actually got Binlor at level 1 (+5 HP? Yes, that's exactly what I need right now) and found ENDISWALL shortly thereafter, so I ended up at level 10 with 25% defence. And...I still failed to kill all enemies. (The boss was Tormented One, and there was a level 9 Wraith, Level 7 Wraith, and Level 8 Goo Blob. Would have been winnable if I had the BLUDTOPOWA glyph, but...as-is I couldn't handle so many anti-physical walls with 4 mana potions and a Dwarf Rogue). I think Rogue might be able to pull off a kill-all-enemies run, though, if it gets luckier with the high level enemies.

Darvin wrote:How on earth did you go 14 rounds without getting a single gimp situation popping up? Whether it's a level 5 blocking the only hallway exit


It wasn't 14-in-a-row. The various classes I died with were mixed in there (including gimp situations like Thief--notably I lost with Thief and not with Bloodmage, which is hillarious because Thief is pretty much just better than Bloodmage). But yes, I have a roughly 75% win rate in the boss hive when using non-Rogue classes.

or just a bad combination of high-level monsters, there are just a whole range of scenarios that can make the game unwinnable.


Bad combinations of high level monsters often isn't an issue, as it's usually possible to kill the boss somewhere in the range of level 5-7.

bkteer wrote:i suspect it may be due to the gauntlet runs. Apparantly gauntlet runs past lvl 15 are as hard or harder than the boss hive runs.


More like Gauntlet Level 8 is about as hard if not harder than Boss Hive. Boss Hive multiplies HP by 2 (excluding the boss), and sometimes adds a little extra (like Lord Gobb's 20% defences, or Meat Men getting HPx3 instead of HPx2). Gauntlet multiplies attack and HP of all monsters by (1+0.05*Lvl). So, for instance, Gauntlet Level 20 multiplies the attack AND the HP of all enemies by 2 (including the boss). Pretty clearly harder than the Boss Hive. I say Gauntlet level 8 as the break-even point with Boss Hive, because that's when you have 1.4x normal HP, and 1.4x normal attack on enemies. 1.4x1.4 = 1.98, which is roughly 2. Yeah, the enemies lack the random boss bonuses, but the fact that the actual boss has 1.4x multipliers counteracts that.


That said, high level Gauntlet runs are kind-of different from clearing the Boss Hive with all classes. In Gauntlet runs (above a certain level) you pick between two classes exclusively, and reset if you don't get the deity you need. Boss Hive you can do with any class, and don't really need a deity for any of them.
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