Improving and Changing Gods!

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Improving and Changing Gods!

Postby The Avatar on Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:08 pm

I don't no about everybody else, but I think these 3 are by far the worst 3 gods, and to top it off, their desecration penalties are awful (Except Binlor in some cases). These 3 really need to be buffed. Any suggestions. Also, Tikki Tooki's desecration should only give weakening, because with weakening and first strike it might as well just kill you automatically. Any ideas for buffing them?
Last edited by The Avatar on Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby Darvin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:03 am

because with weakening and first strike it might as well just kill you automatically.

Basically for both Taurog and TT if you're going pure magic there's no reason not to knock out those alters, and if you're going to be doing any physical attacks then you don't even want to consider angering these deities. This is part of a larger problem I see with the deity lineup currently (this is true of everyone except Jehora), that either the penalty is so huge that you can never even consider taking it, or it really has no impact on you so the penalty is meaningless.

Presently Mystera and Glowing Guardian stand in a class of their own. Unless you're playing Purist, no one in their right mind can afford to have all their items stripped from them, and taking +15% resists to all monsters is simply nuts. I don't think any realistic character can even consider desecrating either. On the opposite extreme is Binlor which only affects people with resistances, which is relatively few now that the dragonshield is nerfed.

Personally, I think most if not all of these need to change. The penalty needs to stop being so steep for the general-case character, but needs to be harder to circumvent.


For Tikki Tooki, I feel the problem are his two potion boons. The bottom line is: 90% of the time a mana/health potion is better than the quicksilver/reflex potion. Even in the rare cases where it isn't better, the net gain is so marginal that I'm better off converting to another deity to use that piety elsewhere. Tikki's other three boons are fairly good as is, it's just that he has these two absolutely horrendous ones taking up space.

For Taurog, he's pretty marginal unless you're a Monk or Berserker. Most of his boons simply are not worth the -2 mana tradeoff, and requiring piety and an inventory slot on top of this makes him a no-go for most classes. Now that Monk no longer has atrocious inventory limitations that may not be a trade he's willing to do either. I really think Taurog needs a complete rework. Right now people who can afford to eschew magic are doing well with him, and everyone else doesn't even touch his boons... which means he's only really used by 2 classes.

I actually think Mystera can be added to the list of gimped gods. Her only good boon right now is mana leak. Magic is way too double-edged for most characters, weakening has always been horrendously overpriced, flames is an insane downside to anyone who isn't going pure-magic, and refreshment is pretty niche (mostly useful for multi-stage bosses). Glyph magnet is pretty lame. Mystera punishes glyph conversion pretty strongly, so there's a lot of incentive to find and convert the majority of them before you begin worship. While I occasionally use her boons, I use her much less than Tikki Tooki and it's usually as a piety farm with mana leak being my alternative if I can find no one better to convert to.


While we're on the topic, another discrepency I find is the bonus deities give on worship. Some, like Taurog, potentially give large sums of piety when you join their religion. On the other hand, Dracul gives almost no piety, and Mystera literally does nothing. It gets a little silly late-game when Taurog will actually give you enough piety to convert to someone else! This is especially egregious for the Glowing Guardian since high-level characters who have already converted most of the glyphs really have no way to earn piety with him.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby The Avatar on Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:14 am

They need to make mana just not give resistance to physical!
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby FDru on Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:25 am

Desecration penalties don't mean anything to me. I've desecrated all the gods altars in times of need and won because of it. Maybe some are too harsh, but only in comparison to others.

Perhaps weak desecration penalties need to be buffed, because it should never be a decision that is taken lightly.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby Darvin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:08 am

They need to make mana just not give resistance to physical!

It used to be like this. It was too good for characters spending their mana on HALPMEH, CYDSTEPP, or PISORF. The Gnome Warlord in particular was getting a free ride from Mystera. It got changed for a reason.

Perhaps weak desecration penalties need to be buffed, because it should never be a decision that is taken lightly.

But it often is, and that's the point. In most cases it's a steep penalty and you must tread carefully, but in many cases you can outright ignore it.

For instance, a Mystera worshipper who uses all their mana potions and then commits to BURNDAYRAZ in the end-game has no qualms with desecrating, Taurog, Tikki Tooki, Binlor, or Dracul. That's a long list of deities, three out of four having extremely steep penalties, that you can freely desecrate in that circumstance.


Here are some ideas for deities:

Mystera
On worship:
+10 piety for every glyph in your inventory or revealed on the map; all remaining glyphs on the map teleported to her alter.

Glyph Magnet:
Costs 20 piety. Creates 1 random glyph at the alter. This is repeatable, and will not create duplicate glyphs that already exist. This boon will fail if there is one of every glyph on the field.

Magic:
Costs 30+20 piety. +5 mana, +1 mana regen per tile, -3 health regeneration per tile. (This can cause negative regeneration, which means it is difficult to combo with BLUDTUPOWA or if you repeat it too much)

Weakening:
Costs 30+10 piety, reduces BOTH physical and magic resist by 10%.


Tikki Tooki:
Special Brew:
Costs 25 piety and grants 10 gold; takes 1 healing potion and creates 1 quicksilver and 1 reflex potion. This replaces quicksilver and reflex potion.

Masquerade:
Costs 25 piety and grants 10 gold; allows you to purchase a single boon from another alter, even if you do not follow that god. Repeatable (I think we can all agree that this would make Tikki Tooki a very strong deity).
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby subanark on Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:27 am

My thoughts:
Taurog - Yea this penality is a bit unforgiving. It really should punish magic usage (since that is the only thing he cares about). Maybe reduce your max MP by 2 or something. I can see a hybrid magic/physical taking Taurog though, as it if you use magic sparingly you can still avoid punishment. And if all you really want is a bit of resist this maybe the right choice.
TT - I really think the penalty here is fine. Later in the game a few weakness is manageable. TT's problem is there isn't any way for low level characters to gain piety. So taking him at a low level is almost always a mistake. He should grant initial piety based on your money, and reward piety for picking up money/power ups/potions. This way if you take him later on you lose all that piety that you could have gained from having you initial money and all those powerups you gained. As for his potions, they either need to be buffed or remove the potion trade in requirement:
Potion of life draining: Your next attack drains 100% of the damage you do (you can go up to 150% of your max HP).
Potion of penetration: Your next attack reduces the resistances of your opponent by 20%.
GG: Punishment should removing the large item highest in your invintory, or all your small items if you have no large items (with a message that GG has forgiven your transgression if you have no items).
Mystera: Punishement - Increases resistances to magic users, converting items only rewards 1/2 conversion points. Magic boon grants MP, but corrodes (and weakens?) you.
Drac: Punishment - All enemies gain life steal. Paying life should reward less and less piety each time.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby Darvin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:35 am

and reward piety for picking up money/power ups/potions.

I like this idea a lot.

GG: Punishment should removing the large item highest in your invintory, or all your small items if you have no large items (with a message that GG has forgiven your transgression if you have no items).

It's a possibility, but it opens up the possibility of using a Bloody Sigil or another inexpensive item to thwart him. How about the glowing guardian permanently destroys one of your inventory slots, destroying an item if your inventory is full.

Mystera: Punishement - Increases resistances to magic users, converting items only rewards 1/2 conversion points. Magic boon grants MP, but corrodes (and weakens?) you.

I don't think we can do a desecration effect based on conversion, otherwise it's trivial to desecrate after you've already finished the conversion process. Similarly, raising resistance of magic users will depend on whether the boss is a magic user.

Drac: Punishment - All enemies gain life steal. Paying life should reward less and less piety each time.

Life steal is meaningless once the map is fully-explored. I do agree something needs to be done about Blood Tithe.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby The Avatar on Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:24 am

I think the real problem with Drac and Blood Tithe is not as much blood ages and wizards, but CYDSTEPPers. How about his punishment also destroys holy glyphs? Also, I like the idea of gaining corrosion when you use the magic boon! I think Mystera should only give physical resistance for magic and desecration, and weakening boon costs 50 piety, increasing by 10 each time, and it removes all resist allocated by mystera.
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby 232 on Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:29 am

Darvin wrote:For Taurog, he's pretty marginal unless you're a Monk or Berserker. Most of his boons simply are not worth the -2 mana tradeoff, and requiring piety and an inventory slot on top of this makes him a no-go for most classes.


This may result in some over-powered horribleness, but what if Taurog's equipment was changed to be small items, or maybe have it reserve a block of two item slots?
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Re: Taurog, Binlor, and Tiki Tooki

Postby Darvin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:38 am

This may result in some over-powered horribleness, but what if Taurog's equipment was changed to be small items, or maybe have it reserve a block of two item slots?

That would probably be absolutely broken for Berserkers and Monks, without doing too much to help other classes which still depend on magic. I think a fundamental second look needs to be taken at Taurog to redesign him.

One of the stated goals is to make the gods more cosmopolitan and appeal to a wider range of classes. Currently Taurog's boons just aren't worth it for most classes.
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