Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoilers)

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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby eigenket on Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:51 pm

metroid composite wrote:I could see that; I'd be curious to make 19 different folders and see how far each class gets (except that I don't have that kind of patience, with Gauntlet only going up by 5% each win and all that; that's probably 1000 rounds).


We could each pick a couple of classes and compile our results.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby metroid composite on Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:54 pm

eigenket wrote:
metroid composite wrote:I could see that; I'd be curious to make 19 different folders and see how far each class gets (except that I don't have that kind of patience, with Gauntlet only going up by 5% each win and all that; that's probably 1000 rounds).


We could each pick a couple of classes and compile our results.


That's a thought.

If we're going to do that, though, we'd want to standardize somehow. Like "everyone use maximum unlocks" or "everyone use minimum unlocks". And there's still a risk that it might be kinda silly--I can forsee a situation like "everyone but Berserker can get enough mana to Binlor to level 10".


Hmm...if the purpose of this exercise is to get a consistent class measure, maybe what we should do is minimize random variables with something like "No items, no deities". We won't reach astronomical Gauntlet numbers that way (most classes should cap out probably around level 10-15?), but it's the difference between the classes that matters, not the absolute level.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby dislekcia on Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:36 pm

Heh, while that would certainly be interesting, we've already gotten what we were looking for out of the gauntlet. The setup was designed to give all you hardcore players something grind away at, and help us isolate the real runaway feedback loops that would break balance no matter what. Binlor's one of those elements, so that informed the god re-balancing that Nandrew's been doing the past couple of weeks.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby Darvin on Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:06 am

I'm really curious about the god rebalancing. The idea of playing a Sorcerer that can worship Taurog is enticing, since this was my biggest gripe with the existing system. The absolute strict tenets of most gods were deal killers. For my part, I almost always end up worshipping either Pactmaker or Glowing Guardian since they're the only gods who aren't overly restrictive.

On a side note, your concept for the Glowing Guardian (I'm presuming it's him; no other god really fits the bearded dude) couldn't be more different than how I envisioned him. I always pictured the Glowing Guardian as a towering angelic silhouette illuminated by a blinding golden sunrise that prevents you from making out any finer features. The blue night sky backdrop really made me think "Pactmaker" or "Mysteria", but the bearded man pictured there doesn't really fit either.

For the record, I envision Dracul as a skeletal figure wrapped in ancient once-beautiful robes that have become tattered and faded with age. I see the Pactmaker as a mysterious shroud who wears a cloak of blackest night that twinkles with starlight, revealing only the slightest hint of his face (his eyes obscured by long hair). The Earthmother has the upper body of a female growing out of an enormous oak. Taurog is a gargantuan bipedal demonic bull (complete with nose ring) and an enormous axe. Mysteria is a woman of timeless youth but ghost-white hair, gowned in the finest silk. Binlor is a short and stubby miner with a pickaxe slung over his back. Jehora is a raving lunatic who has long since lost all material possessions and is clothed only in rags, his body and face constantly shifting based on his latest random whim. Tikki Tooki is a short child-like trickster with oily hair who is constantly playing with knives.

I always find it funny when I'm given sufficient time to form my own mental images of a character how vastly different it can be from what the author intended. It doesn't help that the freeware DD is very vague and open-ended about the gods, leaving you only with a brief description and leaving you to envision what they must be like.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby dislekcia on Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:50 am

Those are some really vivid concepts.

And you're right, clashing with user's ideas that they've created themselves is always a problem when removing ambiguity. The initial god concepts literally focused only on their altars in order to give players a chance to keep their own imaginings, but the space proved too large to fill with just an altar image, so Lurk improvised :) I'm going to send him a link to your post for possible further inspiration as he works on the rest of the god portraits. Thanks!

You've given me an idea as well: To help safeguard the images that people have of the gods, we could treat the portraits as examples of art made in-world by worshippers of the gods, showing their personal interpretations and not a strict "canon" version. Something like "3rd Century oil painting depicting the Glowing Guardian, artist unknown" (with distressed effects to indicate old canvas) or "'Nail and wood, they work tirelessly' - Anonymous" for the Binlor portrait.

P.S. The Glowing Guardian was always intended as a stern bastard, difficult to please and horribly judgmental.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby Darvin on Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:49 am

P.S. The Glowing Guardian was always intended as a stern bastard, difficult to please and horribly judgmental.

If you approach him naively, he certainly plays this way. Once you figure him out, though, you realize that his religion is all about one-night stands (sorry for the crude metaphor). All his boons are one-shot deals, and the only penalty he ever gives you is booting you out of his religion. Yeah... I already got what I wanted, sucker :-P

Two full heals (or a full heal and a death protection) is way better than most gods will ever offer if you begin worship after level 6, and it's effectively free. All you need to do is not piss him off in the short period between joining his religion and cashing in on your boon. He will almost always offer more than 50 starting piety if you join him late enough (usually during the boss fight) and you'll almost never be able to save up for a second boon anyways.

His restriction on APHEELSIK and BLUDTUPOWA is largely academic. Maximizing your starting piety with glowing guardian means beginning your worship after you've completed exploration... by which time the usefulness of these glyphs has expired and there's nothing left to do but convert them. His love of HALPMEH and CYDSTEPP is similarly irrelevant; either convert them before joining or convert them after cashing out your piety.


Those are some really vivid concepts.

I grew up in the days when video games left much to the imagination, and enjoy just sitting back and imagining these things.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby Jedit on Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:07 pm

Darvin wrote:
P.S. The Glowing Guardian was always intended as a stern bastard, difficult to please and horribly judgmental.

If you approach him naively, he certainly plays this way. Once you figure him out, though, you realize that his religion is all about one-night stands (sorry for the crude metaphor). All his boons are one-shot deals, and the only penalty he ever gives you is booting you out of his religion. Yeah... I already got what I wanted, sucker :-P


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't GG also cause you to take a proportion of your damage dealt when he renounces you?
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby Darvin on Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:56 am

Hmmm.... not sure. Believe it or not, I haven't even gotten him to renounce me in a long time. Usually I end up with 70 or 80 favor when I worship him, leaving me with 20 or 30 after cashing out my boon. Unless I'm using poison or bludtupower (unlikely, probably already converted them this late) or convert halpmeh or cydstepp (again, unlikely; awesome glyphs) it's basically impossible to hit zero.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby spoomak on Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:44 am

Jedit wrote:
Darvin wrote:
P.S. The Glowing Guardian was always intended as a stern bastard, difficult to please and horribly judgmental.

If you approach him naively, he certainly plays this way. Once you figure him out, though, you realize that his religion is all about one-night stands (sorry for the crude metaphor). All his boons are one-shot deals, and the only penalty he ever gives you is booting you out of his religion. Yeah... I already got what I wanted, sucker :-P


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't GG also cause you to take a proportion of your damage dealt when he renounces you?

No, Jehora Jeheyu does that.
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Re: Help with extra dungeon in the freeware version?(Spoiler

Postby Carl on Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:54 pm

I haven't done the whole Binlor thing, not really sure what you guys are talking about, I don't really use Binlor. But I was able to beat Gauntlet up to 46 with the Vampire and Pactmaker. Just explore the whole map and get max Pactmaker peity and use all the extra xp to lvl up very quickly, then hope for an easy boss, preferably Medusa or Tormented Soul and start pumping out the fireballs, attacking an enemy or exploring 1 square (save a few from the initial dungeon reveal) to stop the cost getting too high. When Gauntlet gets high there are a lot of restarts, but usually pretty quick since you just search for Pactmaker and an easy boss. It's possible to get two level up slingshots in if you play it right and leave enough low level monsters around. Things are made even easier with the item that gives 50 experience and anything that increases hp, and kegs of health.
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