Okay, take this!

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Re: Okay, take this!

Postby The Avatar on Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:39 am

The problem with people like us is we played the Alpha which highly encouraged you to beat everything with everything.
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Re: Okay, take this!

Postby Troggle on Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:20 am

The Avatar wrote:The problem with people like us is we played the Alpha which highly encouraged you to beat everything with everything.


Exactly. I don't know if it's possible to make a dungeon winnable for every class without letting at least one or two classes beat it with relative ease. It seems to me that the real question is whether you win the game be winning every dungeon, or winning every dungeon with every class. In the Alpha, full completion of every dungeon with every class was possible and a fun challenge. I'd be happy with either situation in the final game.
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Re: Okay, take this!

Postby The Avatar on Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:07 pm

I think it should be simply beating every dungeon...
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Re: Okay, take this!

Postby FDru on Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:14 pm

In the Alpha, "beating the game" (to me) was beating every dungeon with every class. So far, I haven't done that and it still keeps me coming back to it (though I've beaten every dungeon with every class except for the Changeling, including the boss hive). I still haven't completed Lothlorien though, and only up to Gauntlet level 10.

Back to my previous comment, though. I consider a game that's unwinnable to be a crippling flaw, so for example if I could choose a monk and go to the slime pit, but never win because it was impossible (hypothetically speaking, since I know that is possible), it's just a waste of my time and a game that wastes the player's time with impossible stages is a fail.

Bear in mind that I don't consider million to one odds as "possible" even if they technically are. So since relying on, say, 100 dodges in a row at 10% chance to beat a dungeon isn't going to happen in any of our lifetimes it doesn't count.
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Re: Okay, take this!

Postby SnapDragon on Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:49 pm

I'm pretty new to DD, but right now it seems like the most compelling goal in the Beta is to finish all the quests, which includes (as a subset) beating all the dungeons, and also requires you to play with a number of different classes in different situations.

If the goal is just to "beat all dungeons", then class balance becomes extremely important, and I don't think there's any way all of the classes will ever be balanced in that way. Some will always be easier to win with than others (generally AND for specific dungeons). And why waste so much effort worrying about class balance when playing with an underpowered or an overpowered class are each fun in their own way? Quests prod you to experience both of these extremes.

(Incidentally, the same balance issue applies to preparation choice. So far I've only seen quests with "no preparations allowed" or "all preparations allowed"... it'd be nice to see some with a preparation limit. Do they exist?)

Whether the goal is "beat all dungeons" or "beat all quests", I guess it's inevitable that you hardcore endgame players will eventually exhaust everything and make up your own challenges. I agree that it'd be a shame if it simply wasn't possible to light up all the "completed with..." classes on the map screen. My OCD nature would rebel. ;) It'd be nice if there was some way to make it obvious that certain dungeons are only meant for certain classes, without actually preventing endgame players from taking inappropriate classes in and experimenting.
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Re: Okay, take this!

Postby The Avatar on Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:09 pm

The real goal is completing every dungeon and quest for us hardcore extremists with too much free time. The ultimate vicious difficulty dungeons don't have quests (excluding the tower), but they do have cool item rewards, and of course they are just cool dungeons. They are definitely worth completing, in addition to all the quests.
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Re: Okay, take this!

Postby Zaratustra on Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:55 pm

I got the quest for the Shifting something but the dungeon hasn't appeared. Do I need to fulfill another quest first?
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Re: Okay, take this!

Postby The Avatar on Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:18 pm

Beat Northern Desert, rock garden, then Oasis level. It is the next unlock.
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Re: Okay, take this!

Postby dislekcia on Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:38 pm

Zaratustra wrote:I got the quest for the Shifting something but the dungeon hasn't appeared. Do I need to fulfill another quest first?


That's an ordering issue, we'll fix it soon. Sorry for the confusion :)

Regarding general goal conditions: Yes, that's why we have the quests. Note how not many quests require you to finish a dungeon with multiple classes? That's because we tried to move away from the system that the alpha promoted. Sure, we still track completions so that players can optionally go for every dungeon with every class if they want to, but it's not a pre-requisite. Plus hearing players say they've taken a specific dungeon with an unlikely class is pretty damn awesome.
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Re: Okay, take this!

Postby Rithe on Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:50 pm

Not sure when this bug popped up, so I'll include it with the newest version.

Playing through the first set of Challenges, the Positioning one specifically. You are told to convert WEYTWUT because wizards get mana from converting runes. Problem is, I'm not getting any mana. I need to see if this is just a Challenge thing, or class as a whole. But I'd think someone would have noticed that problem if it was as a whole.

[edit]
Ha, silly me. I'm not even in the most recent update post...

In any case, it seems to be something with the whole wizard class. I went into an easy dungeon to check. Human Wizard, at least, cannot convert runes for mana.
[/edit]
Last edited by Rithe on Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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