OMG Vampires <3

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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby The Avatar on Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:08 pm

I took me a few tries to beat eeblis with a vamp. Yes I said EEBLIS!

Since the vamps are so drastically crushed by high damage bosses, how about giving them first strike, but still no mana regen. Or both if it's fair. If you do get mana regen it will basically be GETINDARE and HALPMEH(Make up for that awful hp regen) time...
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby Darvin on Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:19 pm

HALPMEH, BLUDTUPOWA, GETINDARE... yeah, tricky to balance...
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby The Avatar on Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:24 pm

BLUDTUPOWA would be exceptional with a HALPMEH vampire. If you got those to and GETINDARE you could be SUPER POWERFUL!

Is first strike too good? It makes them able to kill higher damage bosses/enemies. Hmm... the problem is still that they need dracul. Hmm... what can we do? How about making Vamps unable to worship, but gain 3-5 lifesteal upon leveling. Along with first strike, of course.
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby Gorgon on Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:48 pm

How about making them get +4 life drain for each conversion and +5% attack bonus instead of +1 HP?
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby The Avatar on Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:51 pm

Then worshipping Dracul would be so unfair I might cry tears of joy. You get 20 life steal and 25% per 200 points! Bring a Tri-sword, cause you ain't gonna need those hp potions! Now if you also made damned forbid worship, this might be fair. I got to figure out the math.

EDIT: Did the calculations, and it is feasible to obtain 105+ lifesteal and 125%+ damage boost of just conversions if you go item conversion happy and bring a sensory stone+conversion seal. This steamrolls the damage of most hard bosses, and you could also easily beat VICOUS!

A level 10 vampire with 104 lifesteal (26 conversions/960 conversion points) Your attack would be 160% of 50 base which is 130 damage. This could easily beat Dragon Isles and Naga City, as long as you have a way of hurting goo tower and Bleaty. Namtar is possible, and Avatar is too! Gaan-Telet would work if you can make it too the boss!
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby q 3 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:49 am

Did I say that purist Tinkers are underpowered? I may have misspoke. Provided they're lucky enough to find GG, the Amulet of Yendor, a Soul Orb, and both HALPMEH and CYDSTEPP.
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby The Avatar on Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:55 am

WOW! I can't even imagine how many tries that would take! Beating him with a tinker at all would be hard enough!
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby q 3 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:23 am

Tinkers are actually a pretty solid class - certainly not broken like Transmuters, but I'd probably rate them in the same tier as Rogues and Paladins. Even on a purist run, it's rare that I'm unable to buy just about everything I'd want to - either thanks to a treasure subdungeon, Tikki Tooki, Midas Gloves, or stealing then transmuting something expensive like the Orb of Zot. Like his alpha incarnation, of course, how powerful he is depends on what items are available - and dungeons where every other shop is selling something nearly useless, like a Burn Salve, are frustratingly common.

(A suggestion: if Fortitude Tonics and Burn Salves are not going to be changed in any other way, at least give them a higher conversion value. I'll still buy a Troll Heart even though its primary use is worthless, just for the conversion points; I virtually never buy either of those potions, though, because they're just so ridiculously niche and quite weak even at that, and have no worth outside of that niche.)
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby The Avatar on Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:43 am

I don't think they live up to paladin standards, especially if you don't get a special subdungeon. Perhaps giving them scout shop?
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Re: OMG Vampires <3

Postby q 3 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:46 am

While I agree that the Tinker's stair sense should be replaced with shop sense, both because it is more generally useful to them and to discourage scumming for special subdungeons, I'd say that Paladins are even more erratic than Tinkers, at least as things stand right now. With Dracul losing Blood Power, a smart Paladin will nearly always be scumming for Glowing Guardian; unless you're using a very peculiar strategy, most of the other deities are distinctly inferior for Paladins, and peculiar strategies do not lend themselves well to on the fly adaptation. Tinkers are much, much better at taking whatever they can find and making some use of it, and despite being generalists they are nearly as powerful (and often more powerful) as the specialist Paladin is even at his best.

On a related note, if Tinkers do retain their stair sense, please change it so that it actually shows stairs rather than a ? glyph - if you're taking Scout Altar (or, presumably any of the other scouts) and the stairs spawn in an area that you'd otherwise have scouted, you won't be able to tell whether they're actually stairs or just a glyph. Having unexplored stairs appear as stairs isn't exactly game breaking.
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