Orc calculations

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Orc calculations

Postby metroid composite on Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:58 pm

Reposting these from a post I made on another forum. As I understand it, new Orc in v0.21 is +2 base attack per glyph conversion, doesn't scale with level...


Level 10 Human Vanilla vs Level 10 Orc Vanilla, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 50*1.7 = 85
Orc: 58*1.3 = 75

Level 5 Human Vanilla vs Level 5 Orc Vanilla, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 25*1.7 = 42
Orc: 33*1.3 = 42

Level 1 Human Vanilla vs Level 1 Orc Vanilla, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 5*1.7 = 8
Orc: 13*1.3 = 16

And in general, every time you level up, Humans gain 8.5 damage, and Orcs gain 6.5 damage

So...you need to gain an extra level overall with Orc's early damage to make them worthwhile against the boss (and even that won't necessarily make them deal more damage with physical attacks, but there are enough residual benefits from an extra level like more HP, better fireballs, more HP regen, etc, that it's probably worth-it).


Well, that's Vanilla; what about Rogue?

Level 10 Human Rogue vs Level 10 Orc Rogue, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 50*2.2 = 110
Orc: 58*1.8 = 104

Level 7 Human Rogue vs Level 7 Orc Rogue, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 35*2.2 = 77
Orc: 43*1.8 = 77

Level 1 Human Rogue vs Level 1 Orc Rogue, four glyphs converted, all attack buffs picked up:

Human: 5*2.2 = 11
Orc: 13*1.8 = 23

Even with Rogue, unless you get an extra level out of your bonus low-level damage, or don't get to level 8, Human will be better. (Now, if you do get an extra level, then unquestionably Orc is better).


Overall, I have to admit that I'm just not that impressed by Orc. The one time you can get much of an advantage out of them (level 1-2) you probably haven't found many glyphs, and you're probably hesitant to convert them because you don't know what deity/boss/walling you're going to face later.
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Re: Orc calculations

Postby Nandrew on Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:59 pm

Thanks for the math. This is actually a prime example of what happens when we design a class in the freeware while keeping in mind the balance for the full version. :P Base damage is somewhat more important in the full, and affects a few more aspects which bonuses don't.

It could probably do with a touch more sprucing up in the freeware, but trust me when I say that +2 base damage will have a profound effect -- and in the most surprising places -- for savvy players in the full. ;)
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Re: Orc calculations

Postby Nandrew on Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:22 pm

Actually, ignore that, you've just given me another idea. Thanks for the feedback. :)
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Re: Orc calculations

Postby Darvin on Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:07 am

Problem I have with the orc is that when you can make the most use of his boost (level 1) your access to glyphs for conversion is most unreliable. The "4 glyphs converted" comparison is probably only valid at level 5+ to begin with, and you've probably converted only 1 or 2 tops at level 1, which gives a much more marginal benefit.

If things work differently in the full version, then this may be more interesting, but in the free-ware it just seems like a more situational variant of human. Honestly, I think goblin is better if you want to speed level; pop a glyph to jump straight to level 2 and avoid all the exploration rummaging for something your weak level 1 can kill.
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Re: Orc calculations

Postby T-hawk on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:36 pm

How about the berserker for an orc? He runs at +60% damage against higher level monsters, more than the rogue. Or the priest, his +100% vs undead is applied to base damage.

But yeah, the human damage bonus does usually outshine the orc's base damage. It's also easier to pick up base damage from other sources than damage bonuses; the Fine Sword item is common, and Jehora, Taurog, and Earthmother all add base damage. Only Dracul adds a damage bonus (you never get the piety for Taurog's top boon), and only the knockback flail among items (besides the crazy rare high-end blades.)
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Re: Orc calculations

Postby bkteer on Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:21 am

I just realised that the crusader benefits the most from the orc base dmg glyph conversion only because his matyr scales off base dmg.

That and orc is good for getting out the early dmg output that you would need in boss hive.
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Re: Orc calculations

Postby Darvin on Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:53 am

Orc Crusader, Orc Rogue, Orc Priest... if you're playing seriously, these are basically the only classes you'd ever choose for an Orc. Everything else will pretty much always get better results for a human.

Really kind of sad when your entire racial "thing" is eclipsed by a 25 gold item (fine sword is equivalent to 5 glyphs converted for an orc, and to add insult to injury it stacks with the human's attack bonus)
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Re: Orc calculations

Postby TigerKnee on Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:23 am

2.5 glyphs actually. A glyph conversion for an orc is 2 damage per conversion. If it gave 1 damage I think a grand total of 0 people would consider picking that class.

As far as that list go, I think Orc Barbarian works too actually. Probably one of the better Barbarian classes really, but that class has SOME issues in that glyphs are just so powerful and penalizing glyph use means... yeah.
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Re: Orc calculations

Postby Darvin on Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:08 am

For some reason I was thinking fine sword increased damage by 10. In any case, still puts the orc to shame.

I've always viewed Orc Berserker as more thematic than practical. You'll get some nice utility out of your base damage against spellcasters, but really if there are lots of spellcasters it should be auto-win for berserker anyways and your real challenge will always be the non-spellcasters.
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Re: Orc calculations

Postby bkteer on Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:17 pm

Then again it never is that simple since it depends on what class you're picking up. If you're crusader, all the base dmg that you can stack up helps.
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