Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

All things Desktop Dungeons

Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:24 am

Pardon the douchebag title, but I couldn't resist.

I started a new profile and decidet to test a hypothesis, namely, that unlocking content actualy makes the game significantly harder. I've decided unlock / spend money on only the moronicaly broken stuff, and so far it's been going swell.

So far I've unlocked the following, and for the following reasons:

God's

TT and GG. I don't plan on unlocking any other god, as it's not worth it, excet Pactmaker maybe. GG is a piety farm in any hard or vicious dungeon where there are enemies with poison and you have halpmeh, and TT is the best god in the game bar none (while not being obviously broken like GG, or Drac). His piety loss after you get poison is insignificant, you can buy his piety with money (and recycle), his potions are quite nice - he's very damn usefull, and once you have poison and dodge, easy to farm up piety with and get use of all your potions once you get enlightenment. If you've also been thorugh GG's leveling boot camp, he seals the deal. Any other combination of gods doesn't come anywhere near this. I'll get all of them in Gaan'Telet and Naga City anyway, and I guess I don't need any other combo anywhere else.

Classes

The four basic ones, obviously, and I also found tinker. This is great as the Thief is broken and takes no investment, and Tinker is even better if I ever need scumming runs. The justification for the rest of the stuff is as follows:

Rogue, Assasin - for the gorgons and bandits, to ensure cheap fodder. I probably didn't need Assasin as I get TT's poison in every run (plus the 10 gold from it), and having the poison glyph around reduces my chances of finding Halpmeh, which in retrospect is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. I don't intend to actually play the rogue (I've unlocked the Monk, if anything needs completing 3-4 times I have better options), and assasin is one of those options, especially after I unlock goblins.

Berserker - got him for free, and for the locker space. It did bring Wraiths into play, but they are not really dangerous, and are ok fodder for GG. I'm not unlocking the warlord, cydstep is / was broken, but I never liked it, and having it clog up my glyph quota is not worth it. Or having goos around unless scripted.

Monk, Paladin - For Monk, see thread title, Paladin was there as a strong class, for getting Halpmeh and making Monk stupidly broken, and I thought having Dragonkin around was ok, I needed some more magic dmg enemies (as I'm not unlocking mysteria, this makes Berserker more viable when I can use him to get money from quests)

Wizard, Sorcerer - I unlocked sorcerer for the goats (more cannon fodder), and for the 2nd generation quest. Also, if I need a decent spellcaster. I don't intend on unocking Bloodmage (i allready got enough degenerate classes), but i might eventually for the fireball magnet preps.

EDIT, New Classes:

Tinker - Because it's free, and also good for scumming quest subdungeons.

Dragonkin - Because Dragon islest turned out to be only moderately challenging for Monk, Paladin and Thief without junk in the shops, with worthwhile godas, items and glyhs available.

Items - Soul Orb, Poison Ward, Gloves of Midas, Agnostics Collar, Dragonshield. I'll get the trisword if possible (can't remember which quest does what - I've accidentaly unlocked Mana Bead thinking for some reason that the quest would give me Elven Boots -.-') I've lockered The Collar, Dragonshield and Sensation Stone, every other item in the game except the trisword and fire heart pales in comparison (and I'll probably locker the heart as it breaks spellcasters, as I most probably won't need the collar).

I won't bother looking for the which, if youre not screwed over by balanced content messing up your game (in other words 80% of the stuff that I didn't unlock and probably won't), you don't need whoopaz, or any other potion messin your shops up. I'll do everything with monk first, grab all the money along the way, then mop up everything else that needs no unlocking useless (erm, balanced) stuff with thief, paladin, assasin and sorcerer, then test the fighter in vicious dungens without the need for wasting enormous amounts of time and gold scumming for all the stuff neccessary to have a shot at being competitive.

MISC:

Alchemist: Lvl 1 - i never prepared transmutation, and if I have TT in the game I can ussually buy just about anything.

Bank, Blacksmith - Lvl 2 now, I'll try to get them as high as they go. Again, with TT I'm not really having any money problems.

Bazaar - I'll have to think about. Prepping quest items increses my chances of getting the worthless bead (curse you blue bead! :D), and reduces my chance to get excellent early game conversion fodder (blood sigil, troll heart) as well as the fine sword. On the other hand, random dwarven gauntlets and elven boots, incresed chance for gloves of midas, agnostics collar and soul orb might be necessary for some end game stuff.

EDIT:

Having useless but exensive crap instead of the gloves, blood sigil, troll heart and such makes the game much harder. If you think about it, getting all 3 is almost as much CP as a conversion scroll (215?), and all that for around 30 gold, and you can pay a part of it back with gloves, AND you can get 7-11 extra HP off of troll heart.

JUSTIFICATION:

I actually had an easiest time ever completing the Dragon Isles with the monk this way. Preps? Conversion stone and scroll, subdungeon, altar scouting, +10% badge, 35 gold. Found GG and a lvl 4 snake, had absolution at lvl 2, converted to tiki tooki before I uncovered half the map, mopped the floor with the bosses. Guys, these things ARE broken, I've unlocked only 2 gods and found one glyph, and that translated into more than 200 piety on a deity that's considered "stingy" - before I uncovered one third of the map! I whish I'd done a video of it.
Last edited by Lujo on Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:18 pm, edited 6 times in total.
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2896
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Darvin on Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:47 am

I'll get the trisword if possible (can't remember which quest does what

The quest is unlocked after you unlock the Warlord class, so if you want the Trisword you have to unlock Warlord first.

(and I'll probably locker the heart as it breaks spellcasters, as I most probably won't need the collar).

You do need BLUDTUPOWA to push this over the edge, so you'll need to unlock the Bloodmage at that time.

you don't need whoopaz, or any other potion messin your shops up

That's a pretty big sacrifice to eschrew WHUPAZ, Strength, and Schedenfreude. I can understand not wanting to unlock burn cure and fortitude, but I think the gains outweigh the losses.

Guys, these things ARE broken, I've unlocked only 2 gods and found one glyph, and that translated into more than 200 piety on a deity that's considered "stingy" - before I uncovered one third of the map! I whish I'd done a video of it.

So do I; sounds like you really knocked the ball out of the ballpark.

I do agree that any situation where you can repeatedly poison yourself then cure with HALPMEH is potentially abusable with GG. Even if it's not a single enemy, it can still be a piety bonanza just from plants.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3188
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby gjaustin on Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:55 am

Yeah, I think most of us already agreed that the Monk, Thief, and GG are stronger than most everything else in the game and that a lot of the shop items you can unlock are actually pretty bad.

If you do decide to unlock Pactmaker and Warlord, I'd be curious to see how much damage you can do with the Halfling Paladin/GG/Body Pact/Trisword combo.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:09 am

I've done Paladin Dragon Isles now. No whoopaz. Heck, pally has 0 build in magic resists, and the thief has more stuff lying around. I'll unlock the damn Dragonkin before I unlock my third deity - about an infintes time easier than in my last "regular" profile.

I advise anyone still dobuting that this game has major balancing issues (easily solvable, just mysteriously ignored all the way up to now), to try this aproach, just to check out how bad it gets.

Oh, and I whish the devs would get the damn converson stone out of this game, or at least somewhere where you can't grab it so easily. Yeah, it's a money sink, but with conversion seal around it's busted in ungodly ways.
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2896
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Lujo on Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:34 am

Darvin wrote:
I'll get the trisword if possible (can't remember which quest does what

The quest is unlocked after you unlock the Warlord class, so if you want the Trisword you have to unlock Warlord first.


Well, no trisword then, I guess...

Darvin wrote:
(and I'll probably locker the heart as it breaks spellcasters, as I most probably won't need the collar).

You do need BLUDTUPOWA to push this over the edge, so you'll need to unlock the Bloodmage at that time.


I'm not really going for powergaming here, I'm just trying to see / prove how ridiculously EASY it is to break this game apart, as it is now. Im' looking for sort of the minimum of things you need to beat all endgame stuff, the less advanced things needed the better. What I'm worked up about is that there are glaring fundamental flaws in this game that aren't being adressed - there is nothing "slighty above the curve" about the monk and the thief, and if I find anything that challenges them along the way then it's impossible for anyone else to complete most likely.

Darvin wrote:
you don't need whoopaz, or any other potion messin your shops up

That's a pretty big sacrifice to eschrew WHUPAZ, Strength, and Schedenfreude. I can understand not wanting to unlock burn cure and fortitude, but I think the gains outweigh the losses.


Yes, but I never get screwed over by anything really. All I got is worthwhile conversion fodder (I'm loving Troll Heart - great damn item) and unbalanced stuff. I've done a whole bunch of old Gaan'Telet runs on just one Bloodswell, and I figured out that I could've had 3-4 in which case I wouldn't need Whoopaz - on a 5000 HP boss. On up to 1000 HP bosses, I definitely don't need it. And in that whole dungeon, the only really important boons were dodge, poison and humility, everything else was just there to up resists, excet the ocasional skullpicker.

If I farm GG for piety, I can get healing from him, if not - well, we'll see. But I suspect I'll have no trouble really.

About potions: STR potion is an unbalanced prep, but a lousy way to send 15 gold, and the 2nd tier potions are crap most of the time. I'd rather have my shops full of stuff I'd love to prep but can't because I can only prep one thing, and if there's gonna be potions, I'd stick with one health potion and one mana potion every time. Not upgrading the witch is incredibly helpful, I'd recommend anyone to give it a try. It saves you 1-3 shops per game from being almost completely useless, and that's a huge advantage.

Check the EDIT in the main post, I think it's a big deal. I KNOW it's a big deal as I'm playing that way and feeling the differance.

Darvin wrote:
Guys, these things ARE broken, I've unlocked only 2 gods and found one glyph, and that translated into more than 200 piety on a deity that's considered "stingy" - before I uncovered one third of the map! I whish I'd done a video of it.

So do I; sounds like you really knocked the ball out of the ballpark.

I do agree that any situation where you can repeatedly poison yourself then cure with HALPMEH is potentially abusable with GG. Even if it's not a single enemy, it can still be a piety bonanza just from plants.


Well, you can get hit a lot with monk. Halmeh after every hit, heal up while making your way to TT altar, go back, repeat... Halpmeh REALLY shouldn't cure poison.
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2896
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Darvin on Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:08 am

I advise anyone still dobuting that this game has major balancing issues

Oh, I don't doubt this at all. Mystera and Earthmother are still completely out of the ballpark, Binlor is a one-trick pony, Taurog's boons are too narrow, Dracul has largely fallen off my radar since Blood Power got removed.

I find Glowing Guardian, Jehora Jeheyu, Tikki Tooki, and Pactmaker on the only deities I really want to appear. Situationally I may want to see Binlor or Dracul. The remaining three are basically scenario-specific to the point at which I just don't want to see them show up at all.

Taurog is basically only useful for getting through Bleaty-type bosses, since he's the only reliable and repeatable source of death protection now that CYDSTEPP has been nerfed into the ground for non-Warlords. Mystera is basically only useful for mana leak bombs, which doesn't scale well into the vicious scenarios. Earthmother... uh... I actually don't think I ever use her.


there is nothing "slighty above the curve" about the monk and the thief

Same is true of a Jehora Jeheyu Gnome Warlord. However, I'd agree that Monk and Thief are the two that deserve the most attention right now. Tinker, Paladin and Bloodmage round out the second-tier and will reliably crush just about any hard difficulty level.

CYDSTEPP and HALPMEH were about on equal turf prior to the exhaustion effect. The latter was only seen as a "problem" by the player-base because back then we had great tools for raising base damage but not so much for raising resists or magic damage. As more and more resistance tools are coming into play, to the point at which even a 0% class can actually reach the 65% cap, I feel HALPMEH has completely overtaken where CYDSTEPP was prior to its nerf. BURNDAYRAZ is still the consolation prize if you don't prep the fire heart.

This is partially why I'm so confused that CYDSTEPP has been nerfed again. It was about right, and if anything I feel it should have gone back to its alpha incarnation now that other glyphs are catching up and the Rogue should have been tweaked.


Halpmeh REALLY shouldn't cure poison.

I'm conflicted on this one. The GG piety loophole needs to be addressed for certain, but I'm more concerned about how HALPMEH synergizes so powerfully with resists than curing poison. This secondary effect allows it to appeal to a wider range of characters, for instance those who need to reactivate BLUDTUPOWA after taking poison.

Perhaps each use of HALPMEH should lower max resists by 1%. Only places that's a concern are endurance runs (where HALPMEH is brutally overpowered) and resist stackers (where HALPMEH is brutally overpowered).
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3188
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby q 3 on Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:38 am

Meh. Do it Purist and I'll be impressed. Honestly I think a big part of why I am so focused on Purist runs is that preparations have seemed to me from the get go to be ridiculously unbalanced. Most of the dungeons in the game can easily be beaten Purist as long as you know what you're doing, which means that preparations are themselves akin to cheat mode; the handful of dungeons that cannot reliably be beaten Purist are all still generally not much of a challenge if you take the right preparations.

This game is still very much a product of the alpha version, in which the most you could ever bring in to a dungeon was a pile of gold that would eventually translate into shop purchases, but only when you found a shop and only whatever the shops happened to be selling. Being able to specifically select power items and bonuses completely wrecks the balance in a way that I don't think has ever adequately been addressed. In particular, the Sensation Stone + Orc combination is probably nearly impossible to balance properly because it's so potent due to the nearly limitless conversion points that a dedicated player can amass; meanwhile, the Dragon Shield even after its nerf is a tremendous bonus that adds a huge amount of staying power all the way from beginning to end.

Darvin wrote:This is partially why I'm so confused that CYDSTEPP has been nerfed again. It was about right, and if anything I feel it should have gone back to its alpha incarnation now that other glyphs are catching up and the Rogue should have been tweaked.


I completely agree. CYDSTEPP is nearly worthless in most instances now, other than for one quick cast while you're still exploring. And yet again, the Rogue is the (second) least affected class, having a lower max HP to worry about, first strike that makes it much more feasible to deliberately wreck his own max HP to avoid the penalty, and high attack power that means combat is resolved with fewer exchanges of blows which means fewer castings of CYDSTEPP per combat than any other class. That, and having a glyph be gimped with a special exemption for one class just seems very ugly to me.

Now that there are more dungeons with an emphasis on tanking, I think it would be safe to change CYDSTEPP back to the way it was and instead work on reducing its synergy with Rogues. Although I do still think that some sort of limit on the availability of third tier class glyphs to other classes would be a good idea - hence the notion that each class can pick one, but only one, of those glyphs per run, which would both reduce their efficacy, provide the third tier classes alone with the opportunity to combo those glyphs, and minimize glyph scumming which is perhaps the most tedious and most necessary type of scumming in the game at the moment.
q 3
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby TigerKnee on Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:46 am

I don't think anyone was doubting that the game isn't imbalanced.

It's just that... I don't know. As for me, after the Fighter topic I pretty much lost faith that the game will ever be properly balanced.

Or maybe I just don't think the "framework" for the beta version works. It was interesting reading about it in blog posts back before the game was actually playable about how you would have to think carefully about what to locker and how upgrading the town would be fun, but as it turns out it's just a lot more annoying to unlock stuff in this version.

Oops, that was way too depressing a statement.
TigerKnee
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:54 am

Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby gjaustin on Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:04 am

As much as I like to argue with Lujo's choice of words, I'm getting a little discouraged here too. I mean, how long has it been since Mystera was useful? 3 months? But at least she was useful at one point. We still have the initial version of Martyr Wraps after all.


That said, we've all been playing this game for months. Of course we're getting burned out on it. Think back to the first time you tried to get past the Troll in Havendale Bridge. Or the first time you managed to work out what was needed to beat Naga City.

Those were accomplishments. They may have been done by ignoring the majority of options available, but it was still FUN. Would you still recommend the game to someone who has never played before? I know I would.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: Monk still ridiculous + a guide to playing this game

Postby Darvin on Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:37 am

Would you still recommend the game to someone who has never played before? I know I would.

Absolutely; doesn't mean I don't want to see some fine tweaking done.

Once the game releases and no new content is generated, the "vets" like us will only stick around insofar as the game is moddable to keep things interesting. Glyphs, gods, classes, items... I'd sure love to actually try mixing things up to see what can be done.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3188
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Next

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests