All you're doing is making the game harder...

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Re: All you're doing is making the game harder...

Postby pakoito on Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:52 pm

I'm sorry but Taurog costs must be rised again, being his worshiper makes most dungeons a breeze with Rogues and such. The tradeoff between leaving magic and getting overpowered itemsis leaned in favour of Taurog. I've beaten most of the dungeons I've been in by just following the "Taurog path" and I never looked back, gotten the "Specialist" Badge every time. In some of the earlier dungeons I didn't even need potions.

You just need to step up your game and spend time playing. This is not Modern Warfare where you're taken by the hand, frustration kicks in because that's the way the game is played. Seriously, this trend in dumbing-down games (Diablo 3 the latest) for those people who OMGDONTHASTIMETOPLAY is making me angry. This game like many others like Civilization, Rogue, Super Meat Boy, Starcraft...requires time, thinking and skills, and other people can play it. If you can't you shouldn't have bought it in the first place because you had the alpha to try, if you did don't ask for a refound as it is your fault.
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Re: All you're doing is making the game harder...

Postby TigerKnee on Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:20 pm

Here's a problem: A bunch of us are already freeware veterans. We understand the concept of mid-fight level up full heals, killing higher level enemies for bonus exp and regeneration-fighting bosses.

From what I've seen from a bunch of other forums, it still seems like a hard concept for new players to grasp though.

I definitely don't think we should be making dungeons that forces you to do ALL of the above this early in the game, but remember players don't automatically come with these knowledge and "read the wiki" isn't a legitimate answer to that so there needs to be more gateway dungeons that makes these strategies obvious.
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Re: All you're doing is making the game harder...

Postby Galefury on Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:42 pm

I think bringing back the progress mechanics of the freeware for some levels would work best. Beating one level with many different classes is so much more interesting than just picking the best class for a challenge and then beating it once. And it would give people a reason to spend some time in easier dungeons. Having something like 5-10 dungeons with freeware-like progression mechanics would be really nice. Maybe not a bonus for beating it with each class, but for beating it with each line of classes.


@Herborist:
I was using the proper glowing guardian, with one use of humility. Short guide: go human priest, find the GG altar, get level 2 by killing level 2 enemies, use humility. Kill the goat, level quickly by killing higher level transformed cultists and undead, kill low level transformed cultists and undead with sanctify when you can. Don't kill low level living enemies if you can avoid it, use absolution instead (try to get by with one or two uses to conserve piety). The extra life is very useful for killing the first form of the boss. Transform your potions, use enlightenment. You should be able to kill the first form of the boss at level 7 (after humility), without using GG heals. Then kill it two more times. Leave some unexplored area around to regen between boss fights. Using the level 8 levelup to heal can help, but you might not get that far depending on how lucky you get with enemy distribution. If you have some unexplored space left and don't run into too many cultists (life leech) this isn't necessary anyway. Having enough piety for at least two GG heals for the wraith form helps a lot. Scouting enemies with LEMMISEE is nice because it avoids the lifesteal from transformed cultists.

The enemy composition was a lot nicer on my first try than on my second, so just trying again until the rng likes you can help a lot. Also altar scouting is one of the best preparations, you want to get GG at level 1 or 2.
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Re: All you're doing is making the game harder...

Postby 232 on Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:55 pm

Agreed with the distinction between veterans of the alpha and relative newcomers.

I think one thing that really helped was trying to beat all of the alpha dungeons with each class, forcing us to look at what the benefits of each class actually were and how we could best use them. I noticed that you changed the second set of dungeons from "beat with fighter" to "beat with fighter/berzerker/warlord" and so on, which while it may have made things easier means that you can just grind through to get enough gold for your favoured class then stick with that for a good number of the dungeons. I haven't touched the monk in the beta, simply because I never needed to.
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Re: All you're doing is making the game harder...

Postby flap on Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:30 pm

232 wrote:Agreed with the distinction between veterans of the alpha and relative newcomers.


Yes, there is a difference. But the game is definitely aimed at both public. So really the trick would be to satisfy both.

Regarding unlocks through gold, well I can't comment that much as I am trying not to progress until the beta is well advanced. But I agree with 232, it is much more satisfying to unlock things thanks to the clever use of character than with heaps of gold. But I think that QCF team's target was to make progression a bit easier and avoid player being stopped due to one character they did not like.

There could be a few solutions, for example the more a specific character is used, the less gold it would bring back. So underused characters would suddenly become much more interesting. But still, in the end, we might just have too much money everything maxed out, but still lots of exploration to do.

Another solution, in the same idea could be to allow a character to solve a quest a limited number of quests/dungeons. The game would remember only which character won a dungeon last. So lets imagine that you can choose between a rogue and beserk. You won 3 quests/dungeons with the berserker. You don't fell confident to win the next with a rogue. But winning with the Berserker wouldn't unlock anything as you already used your 3 unlocks for that character.
So you use the rogue win again a dungeon previously won by the Berseker, and free one "possible" victory for the berserker.

Hmm. That might be a bit complicated though...
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Re: All you're doing is making the game harder...

Postby Herborist on Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:21 pm

pakoito wrote:I'm sorry but Taurog costs must be rised again, being his worshiper makes most dungeons a breeze with Rogues and such. The tradeoff between leaving magic and getting overpowered itemsis leaned in favour of Taurog. I've beaten most of the dungeons I've been in by just following the "Taurog path" and I never looked back, gotten the "Specialist" Badge every time. In some of the earlier dungeons I didn't even need potions.

You just need to step up your game and spend time playing. This is not Modern Warfare where you're taken by the hand, frustration kicks in because that's the way the game is played. Seriously, this trend in dumbing-down games (Diablo 3 the latest) for those people who OMGDONTHASTIMETOPLAY is making me angry. This game like many others like Civilization, Rogue, Super Meat Boy, Starcraft...requires time, thinking and skills, and other people can play it. If you can't you shouldn't have bought it in the first place because you had the alpha to try, if you did don't ask for a refound as it is your fault.


You do understand this is a game meant to be released at one point to make money, right?

I can pretty much promise that if the difficulty of each dungeon of the later dungeons, starting with rock garden and forward, arent reduced by at least 10% ~25%, then no one will buy this game. Even the developers have admitted that they started things high and will bring them down over time.

Feel free to feel pride about your accomplishments, but I'm pretty sure very few - if anyone - will agree with your isolationist, elitist, and exclusionary ideals. Without new people, the game you love will almost definitely die.
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Re: All you're doing is making the game harder...

Postby PeaceChaser on Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:32 pm

A lot of the higher difficulty dungeons could be curbed with items like mana burn immunity - items not available now but almost certainly available in the future.
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Re: All you're doing is making the game harder...

Postby Nandrew on Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:50 pm

PeaceChaser wrote:A lot of the higher difficulty dungeons could be curbed with items like mana burn immunity - items not available now but almost certainly available in the future.


Heh, funny you should mention that one specifically ...
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Re: All you're doing is making the game harder...

Postby pakoito on Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:04 pm

Herborist wrote:
pakoito wrote:I'm sorry but Taurog costs must be rised again, being his worshiper makes most dungeons a breeze with Rogues and such. The tradeoff between leaving magic and getting overpowered itemsis leaned in favour of Taurog. I've beaten most of the dungeons I've been in by just following the "Taurog path" and I never looked back, gotten the "Specialist" Badge every time. In some of the earlier dungeons I didn't even need potions.

You just need to step up your game and spend time playing. This is not Modern Warfare where you're taken by the hand, frustration kicks in because that's the way the game is played. Seriously, this trend in dumbing-down games (Diablo 3 the latest) for those people who OMGDONTHASTIMETOPLAY is making me angry. This game like many others like Civilization, Rogue, Super Meat Boy, Starcraft...requires time, thinking and skills, and other people can play it. If you can't you shouldn't have bought it in the first place because you had the alpha to try, if you did don't ask for a refound as it is your fault.


You do understand this is a game meant to be released at one point to make money, right?

I can pretty much promise that if the difficulty of each dungeon of the later dungeons, starting with rock garden and forward, arent reduced by at least 10% ~25%, then no one will buy this game. Even the developers have admitted that they started things high and will bring them down over time.

Feel free to feel pride about your accomplishments, but I'm pretty sure very few - if anyone - will agree with your isolationist, elitist, and exclusionary ideals. Without new people, the game you love will almost definitely die.

You post is all rhetoric, no meat. "I can promise" is not a valid point. Neither is pulling numbers out your ass. People has bought games quite more demanding and difficult than Desktop Dungeons, being Dungeons of Dredmor the latest "hit". In that game there's 10 levels. I can assure you, since my name is in the credits, that the first 15 characters you roll are barely going to scratch levels 1 and 2 before embarrassingly die to a silly mistake, and thats several hours at best. This games are punishing, and the appeal they make to the public lies beneath that difficulty, that challenge the game brings. Lowering the difficulty "by 10 or 25%" for whatever what that % means in your head is only making people hit the wall later on, third tier instead of second. One thing is "newbie island" where players learn the most important basics of the game, named in a previous post, which most of us agree should be longer but not at the cost of lowering the difficulty of the game. It already is more forgiving than Alpha by not limiting unlocks by classes and kingdom/god system is in need of tweaks against minmaxing.

Elitist of course, I started playing in NES, not Xbox, and my games'd better be challengering. If you think that revenue will come of handholding players though the game you're quite wrong. Alpha is there to prove it. And your threat of wanting refound is quite laughable.
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Re: All you're doing is making the game harder...

Postby Herborist on Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:17 pm

pakoito wrote:
Herborist wrote:
pakoito wrote:I'm sorry but Taurog costs must be rised again, being his worshiper makes most dungeons a breeze with Rogues and such. The tradeoff between leaving magic and getting overpowered itemsis leaned in favour of Taurog. I've beaten most of the dungeons I've been in by just following the "Taurog path" and I never looked back, gotten the "Specialist" Badge every time. In some of the earlier dungeons I didn't even need potions.

You just need to step up your game and spend time playing. This is not Modern Warfare where you're taken by the hand, frustration kicks in because that's the way the game is played. Seriously, this trend in dumbing-down games (Diablo 3 the latest) for those people who OMGDONTHASTIMETOPLAY is making me angry. This game like many others like Civilization, Rogue, Super Meat Boy, Starcraft...requires time, thinking and skills, and other people can play it. If you can't you shouldn't have bought it in the first place because you had the alpha to try, if you did don't ask for a refound as it is your fault.


You do understand this is a game meant to be released at one point to make money, right?

I can pretty much promise that if the difficulty of each dungeon of the later dungeons, starting with rock garden and forward, arent reduced by at least 10% ~25%, then no one will buy this game. Even the developers have admitted that they started things high and will bring them down over time.

Feel free to feel pride about your accomplishments, but I'm pretty sure very few - if anyone - will agree with your isolationist, elitist, and exclusionary ideals. Without new people, the game you love will almost definitely die.

You post is all rhetoric, no meat. "I can promise" is not a valid point. Neither is pulling numbers out your ass. People has bought games quite more demanding and difficult than Desktop Dungeons, being Dungeons of Dredmor the latest "hit". In that game there's 10 levels. I can assure you, since my name is in the credits, that the first 15 characters you roll are barely going to scratch levels 1 and 2 before embarrassingly die to a silly mistake, and thats several hours at best. This games are punishing, and the appeal they make to the public lies beneath that difficulty, that challenge the game brings. Lowering the difficulty "by 10 or 25%" for whatever what that % means in your head is only making people hit the wall later on, third tier instead of second. One thing is "newbie island" where players learn the most important basics of the game, named in a previous post, which most of us agree should be longer but not at the cost of lowering the difficulty of the game. It already is more forgiving than Alpha by not limiting unlocks by classes and kingdom/god system is in need of tweaks against minmaxing.

Elitist of course, I started playing in NES, not Xbox, and my games'd better be challengering. If you think that revenue will come of handholding players though the game you're quite wrong. Alpha is there to prove it. And your threat of wanting refound is quite laughable.


You respond to all rhetoric with even more rhetoric. The numbers I "pulled out of my ass" were meant to be rhetorical, and not literal - interpreting them incorrectly is more of a reflection on you than on me, especially when we're discussing difficulty, a subjective and abstract concept.

I've played dungeons of dredmor, I loved the game, and despite rarely beating the first dungeon my first 10 tries, I kept playing, and beat it. The gameplay was fun. I can't say the same for DD after the first few dungeons.

Dungeons of dredmor = challenging, but fun while you're being challenged.
Desktop dungeons = challenging, and almost a chore when you're being challenged.

You're comparing to entirely different games in entirely different genres. Desktop dungeons isn't a roguelike, it's a puzzle game. Dungeons of dredmor is a roguelike.

Feel free to ignore what I'm saying and continue with your ridiculously elitist rants. I know for a fact that the game would suffer if they had the same mentality as you. And don't throw around "my name is in the titles" crap. Your accomplishments don't make your points any more valid (and trust me, they lack any kind of validity).

I'm not going to bother checking the forums again until I see an update the addresses any of the issues that I've voiced. I'd feel more reluctant to say/do this if it weren't for at least 10 other people I know voicing the same opinions. If I don't have enough experience after beating the original and unlocking everything to play this one to at least the half way point, then there's something wrong with it that requires addressing. And the fact that people who have basically already played this version in some way before aren't finding it challenging means nothing.
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