Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/support

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Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/support

Postby Lujo on Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:12 am

While working on making the "tactics compendium" more streamlined and readable, I've noticed a whole separate discussion snuck into it and it obviously has to go. I have a feeling it's worthwhile, so I don't want to just scrap it, and there were questions asked on the topic so here goes, its quite simple.

- There are very little "regen fighting" enablers in the early game, and now that TT is put out of newbie reach (thank god), there isn't really any way to "stumble onto" a dedicated and worthwhile regen fighting approach. I'm not even sure there should or even could be one, for various reasons.

- The basic classes are all spikers, with fighters ability to see monsters without having to explore being the closest thing to an "exploration conservation" mechanism, but the buff to his XP gain pushed him towards spiking. The second tier classes are all regen fighters of some sort, apart from the Rogue. Which is probably why rogue is so beloved. The third tier classes are a mixed bag, exept the Paladin, but ussualy get played as spikers because spiking is better supported by the sytem.

- There is no race specifically suited to enhance regen fighting (meaning no bonus). This makes sense as I've always had trouble figuring out a race for my dedicated regen fighters, settling on +damage races to compensate for the Monks -dam. The CP system itself promotes exploration for glyphs, gold and shops (and TT), and there is/was no racial way to make up for that because the rewards also promoted spiking. The closest thing apart from damage buffers is the Goblin who enables regen fighters who've eat up their popcorn to DING! a little easier while they regen fight, giving moderate hybrid power.

- The initial items are also all spiker items (except the shield), and so are the glyphs except LEMISI (which doesn't work that way on it's own) and WONNAFYT (which lets you save exploration looking for popcorn, kind of, but has you looking for mana). All this accouts for why I've never really had problems with any of them, except in relative power proportion to spiking tools. I've would've even welcomed a MP cost decrese to WONNAFYT better than the XP bonus, as it would let me save more exploration (not that I mind this, just illustrating).

- The poison and mana burn thing. I've finaly put my finger on it, by putting my whining about Horatio's mana burn and the "fast regen and poison" thing togather. Also why Soul Orb and Poison Ward always seemed to be ridiulous to me, while the snake floor in Gaan'Telet was always a huge annoyance. Poison and mana burn shut down exploration regeneration, period. Poison's the issue here. You can get rid of it using HALPMEH (which, incidentaly scales with resist stacking, and was overused), burning a potion (limited and need exploring for but otherwise affordable). There's only one more way - to DING!. So in order to get rid of a debuff that can shut down your ability to fight completely, you have to fight in a way youre not geared towards, or have a glyph/trinket which makes the issue trivial.

- The health regeneration mechanism working per level rather than percentages promotes level catapults and DING! strats by default. This is why the healthmonster works and depends on levels - and also uses non-exploration tools to heal health back in percentages. The problem is that %based damage resistance can also make use of those because of how it's more efficent, which is why health based strats never took off untill now - regen fighters could turn all their exploration into a very efficent physical "megaspike", and still can (wherever it works). And also why they always theoreticaly broke the Bloodswell boon in patently disgusting ways.

- There doesn't seem to be a way of regen fighting apart from poison (which gets ridiculus under right circumstances), the monk (who gets gimped by circumstances but is otherwise really strong), old BLOODTOPOWA (which is gone, though the new one works for the Bloodmage) and stacking dmg resists/reduction (which spiral out of controll in large ammounts, but are a bit mediocre otherwise). The last one is why paladin looks really nice and harmless on paper but gets really ugly with enough sources of resistance stacking, and also why the Dragonshield historicaly broke the "VICIOUS rewards are bragging rights rewards" policy over and over again. I guess the +8% resists item was added to the Cursed oasis to make the Dragonshield seem less necessary, and why I immedeately inquired whether it can be found in shops.

- Regen fighting is focused on health and mana currently. If it worked any other way people would gobble it all up right away (Transmuter seems to have in built mechanisms which prevents you from gobbling it all up in one go). People use it as an extension of their health and mana pool simply because the pools have a "cap" - if you could overheal with it people would gobble it up all in one go and then fight the boss (and then the true potential power would be obvious).

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My questions:

What am I missing?

Is there any way to make regen fighting "moderate", but better supported, at all? Was there ever?

Is there a middle ground between "trivial" (in a dedication sense) regen fighting which optimizes future DING! endgame and "hardcore" prep-dependent regen fighting which either gets shut down by specific hate or snowballs too hard?

Is there a way to sneak less powerfull regen fighting stuff into the early game? Like the thief having a poison on first strike agains the enemy instead of a damage bonus (trowing it out there)?

Are there any mechanics other than poison and damage resistance that would let players get more out of their blackspace? Which wok for an "exploration based megaspike" rather than "exlore entire map right away" fashion (gaining piety for exploration tends to work this way)?

What other "capped" or othewis "non-stacking" "spike friendly" resources could be gained from exploring in order for players to conserve/time it's use it better? Spellpower? Burning Stacks? Damage bonus? Non %based damage reduction? "Might" every X squares revealed? Potion eficcency? Lifesteal? Overheal? Death Protections (like this one, could make a whole new tactic)? Dodge prediction? Dodge stacking? Cleansing? Damage conversion?

As long as the too efficent stuff like %res stacking and on-hit poison stuff is kept in check, ofc. I'd love to see regen fighting get a bit more love.
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Re: Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/suppor

Postby TigerKnee on Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:47 am

Um, anything that increases you damage and decreases your damage taken helps in regen fighting. You can regen fight as long as your damage output + regeneration outnumber the enemy's damage output + regeneration.

So with that said, the Fine Sword and the Tower shield are regen fighting items. Are they also a spike-ing item? Yes, but no one said they were mutually exclusive.

And adding to that, the Human and Orc are the only races that help Regen fighting. The potion classes are obviously all spikes, Elf is also a spiker, because more mana only increases your damage output once (you regenerate mana at the same rate no matter how much mana you have), and so is the Dwarf (more max HP only helps once, then like Elf, you don't regenerate it any faster)

But you know, just saying that there ARE races that can benefit regen fighting.
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Re: Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/suppor

Postby Lujo on Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:02 am

All true, forgot about the sword. And also right abut the damage races (all accounted for in the buildup text wall). Big point is that there are only spike and a select few hybrid preps (races included), with no regen fighting biased stuff before you unlock the 2nd tier classes. Which may also account for any percentages of overuse of the damage races including trilings/gnomes, since them (and the goblin) are what you are most likely to pick if planing on regen fighting, while at the same time being spikes.

There is a lot of exclusively "obvious" spike stuff and very little exclusively "obvious" regen stuff, or it seems that way.

But is there, in theory, stuff that helps regen fight in more specific/subtle ways? Could there be at all?

EDIT: also, stealing the totaly concise and simple explanation for the compendium, props :)
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Re: Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/suppor

Postby fall_ark on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:06 pm

Exploration is a limited resource that is more important in late game than early on. No wonder players are encouraged to spike instead of regen-fight - conserving them for latter use is much more important. That's why regen-fight is almost always reserved for a much higher level monster that you can kill - to make the exploration worth the pay.
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Re: Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/suppor

Postby Lujo on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:49 pm

fall_ark wrote:Exploration is a limited resource that is more important in late game than early on. No wonder players are encouraged to spike instead of regen-fight - conserving them for latter use is much more important. That's why regen-fight is almost always reserved for a much higher level monster that you can kill - to make the exploration worth the pay.


Uh-oh, I might have written all of that in a misdirecting fashion. What I mean "early in the game" = "early in the kingdom develpoment process". Not in a praticular dungeon, that part works the way you described it. In order to regen fight the boss, you got to level catapult rarther eficcently.

If just that regen fighting tools seem to be few, and most of them kept in place by check and balances and scarcity. Would it be possible to think up ways that are not as inherently powerfull, so they could be made more readily available? Add ons to existing stuff, doesn't matter, just really wondering about it...

EDIT: Like stuff that could be balanced in less rigorous ways than poison on strike and %res stacking. Poison practicaly requires that 1/4 of the monsters make it flat out not work (practicaly the entire "schtick" of the undead*), and another 1/4 make it practicaly not work (Pos & MB). On the other hand if there are too many easily acessble %res things coming from non-altars - the game blows up. At least you can't get too many altars to mooch the resist from in most dungeons.

*With the other part being "balancing" Drac, as if. They still get sticked into every dungeon, sometimes with no aesthetic sense. What exactly ARE zombies doing in Dragon Isles, really? Giving the priest a class feature? :D
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Re: Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/suppor

Postby fall_ark on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:21 pm

Lujo wrote:
fall_ark wrote:Exploration is a limited resource that is more important in late game than early on. No wonder players are encouraged to spike instead of regen-fight - conserving them for latter use is much more important. That's why regen-fight is almost always reserved for a much higher level monster that you can kill - to make the exploration worth the pay.


Uh-oh, I might have written all of that in a misdirecting fashion. What I mean "early in the game" = "early in the kingdom develpoment process". Not in a praticular dungeon, that part works the way you described it. In order to regen fight the boss, you got to level catapult rarther eficcently.

If just that regen fighting tools seem to be few, and most of them kept in place by check and balances and scarcity. Would it be possible to think up ways that are not as inherently powerfull, so they could be made more readily available? Add ons to existing stuff, doesn't matter, just really wondering about it...


Oh my bad actually - was in a rush so not really paying attention to the main post...

Back to the theme then. I think part of the problem is that new players have to grasp the concept that exploration is a valuable resource. Regen-fighting in this sense is a bit counter-intuitive. All tier-1 classes have straightforward advantages, so I think it's okay.

Otherwise there's not much to add - Monk is the only class designed to exploit exploration (and thus naturally fit regen-fighting) in the game. Berserker is very suited for regen-fighting as well, thanks to his 50% MR. In fact, due to his high damage bonus, Berserker is the class most likely to face the "Hit, regen 1-2 block, hit again" situation. But you've basically covered all these...
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Re: Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/suppor

Postby Lujo on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:32 pm

Yeah, I'm sort of looking for other ones or ideas about what besides poison, %res and stacking damage directly would help regen fighting in general. At least have some variety and "hooks" for players other than the stuff we have now which needs heavy "countermeasures" by the game.

(not complaining about any existing features, though. I just sort of wanted to illustrate the ammount of natural support spiking has compared to regen fighting in an "all the not entirely obvious reasons is so counterintuitive" overview regarding kingdom development. )

EDIT: and I also forgot low-level Meatmen. They inspire regen fighting, too. Hmmm, whole new "area" to explore. If there were any other ways a monster could inspire regen-fighting besides being "fat with low damage", maybe having such monsters close to the beginning of the game would be a good thing.
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Re: Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/suppor

Postby Darvin on Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:34 pm

The second tier classes are all regen fighters of some sort, apart from the Rogue

Put resistances and a few max health buffs on the rogue and he can regen-fight quite well. Certainly not his default approach, but between high damage and a chance to dodge he's actually very well suited to it with a few modifications.

There is no race specifically suited to enhance regen fighting (meaning no bonus).

The two top attributes for a regen-fighter are damage and resistances. Since a striker-type character also favours damage first and foremost, there is no race uniquely suited to a regen-fighter.

Is there a way to sneak less powerfull regen fighting stuff into the early game? Like the thief having a poison on first strike agains the enemy instead of a damage bonus (trowing it out there)?

Hmmm... perhaps dwarves could be upped to 100 CP conversion ratio, and offer +1 hit point regen per tile. Their hit point max would still scale by level, but the hit point regeneration bonus would not and therefor would be most influential at low-levels.
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Re: Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/suppor

Postby Lujo on Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:37 am

Darvin wrote:Put resistances and a few max health buffs on the rogue and he can regen-fight quite well. Certainly not his default approach, but between high damage and a chance to dodge he's actually very well suited to it with a few modifications.


Very true, as endurance runs can show. Since endurance runs break the "atars per dungeon" rule which keeps %res stacking in check, once you unlock the Dragonshield, a Rogue is actually one of the better choices to beat Gaan'Telet and Naga City. He's my third choice ATM, behind Bloodmage and Crusader*, especially with Dodge prediction readily available.

However, what I ment by rogue not being a natural regen fighter is that he's the patron saint of piety based phys spikes (DP and Dodge ones, and he used to be patron saint of Ye Olde Cydstepp). Since players start out with 4 spikers I guess they tend to play him that way. Cydstepp rogues were such powerful spikers that even other good spike techniques had trouble being noticed for a while.

*Crusader + Gaan'Telet breaks every "rule" that keeps %res stacking in check. You still have to "build" up his resists, but otherwise he's a fun "hack" for that specific dungeon. Don't mind it really, it does take a bit of luck and effort.

Darvin wrote:The two top attributes for a regen-fighter are damage and resistances. Since a striker-type character also favours damage first and foremost, there is no race uniquely suited to a regen-fighter.


True, true, I'm really interested if anyone could come up with what could "enchance" regen fighting in a less "do or die" way. Add a bit of depth to it, so to speak. To help players ease into second tier classes in general, and reduce "tunnel vision" characteristic for dedicated regen fighting strats (and most of my gameplay apparently).


Darvin wrote:Hmmm... perhaps dwarves could be upped to 100 CP conversion ratio, and offer +1 hit point regen per tile. Their hit point max would still scale by level, but the hit point regeneration bonus would not and therefor would be most influential at low-levels.


Math should be done to figure out wether this turns them into monks at some point, and which point. If for no other reason then figuring out would that make Dwarf Monks megamonks. If not, it could be added to an item or a boon or someplace accessible, for sure, if not Dwarves themselves.
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Re: Regen Fighting vs DING! sipike enablers/disablers/suppor

Postby fall_ark on Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:50 am

Lujo wrote:
Darvin wrote:Hmmm... perhaps dwarves could be upped to 100 CP conversion ratio, and offer +1 hit point regen per tile. Their hit point max would still scale by level, but the hit point regeneration bonus would not and therefor would be most influential at low-levels.


Math should be done to figure out wether this turns them into monks at some point, and which point. If for no other reason then figuring out would that make Dwarf Monks megamonks. If not, it could be added to an item or a boon or someplace accessible, for sure, if not Dwarves themselves.


There really isn't much maths involved. Basically your regen-level would be your level + conversion level. You are looking at typically +3 regen-level before any big fights, and a +6 regen-level in late game. That would be insanely broken if added upon existing regen, and insanely underwhelming if level-dependent regen is limited to 1.

Also it will probably be too complex for a base race like Dwarf.

+1 regen sounds fine for an item though. I'm surprised we didn't have one already. In fact, if Troll Heart doesn't already exist it will probably be something like this.
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