Suggestion - Warning

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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby The Avatar on Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:43 pm

Hmm... I disagree.

1) I don't think this is valid. There are different difficulty levels on many games, and I don't think people automatically pick easy. People enjoy challenge.

2) I'd say more than half of the game is about focus and logic, but sometimes you only have 5 minutes. Or it's 3:00 AM. It's much more interesting when you are focused, but that's not always an option.

3) While you could quickly make arguments against other warnings, they would be much less valid. In fact, I don't support the warning they put up when you desecrate JJ. Every other punishment is curable. Other cases you should learn. Mis-click problems due to time-constrictions or lack of sleep are less avoidable based on factors outside of the game.

4) I mean in the case of misclicks.

The thing that would solve everything would be different selection systems. For iPhone you can't highlight stuff, so they would have to make a click-to-select system. If you change your computer option to click-to-select system mode you won't have misclicks (unless you mis-double-click, but that's exceedingly rare).
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby xspeedballx on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:36 pm

1) Difficulty levels are a different animal then quality of life improvements. If for the bare minimum reason that there is a different level of esteem for completion of a game on easy or "impossible" or whatever name the hardest difficulty is. It is a verifiable thing. If there are no benefits or detriment for turning on a quality of life improvement people will. Might as well not make it an option. Now if you want to put an asterix next to your job completion screen if this option is on that's something. But at that point I would imagine the hardcore would just never play with the option(because who wants the asterix) and then just curse the game equally when they lose focus and misclick(it's not like you can turn it on retroactively, and if you are tired or distracted enough to misclick you are likely not thinking to turn the option on either).

2) There are a lot of things you do worse when you rush them or do them at 3 AM. If my cognitive ability has declined, I usually decide to go to bed. I wouldn't play Dark Souls(apples to oranges I know) at 3 AM when tired either.

3) We are miles apart base wise. This is ok. I tend to do avoid tasks that I fail at if tired or in a rush.

A selection based input system option for all hardware is something I support and an elegant solution to the problem. In fact I enjoy the trade off. You are more or less forced to play slower in order to gain a bit more security. PC users both browser and stand alone should get input selection choice(instant vs select/confirm).
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:47 pm

I see your point dude, but I'm with the OP. You can't really use any personal "code of honor" or ethos as a basis for rules that should apply to everybody. Because you might be wrong, or priviledged, and anyway, you got the right notion, but too perscripitve. Not sure if Kant would agree with you and how much, but I'm pretty sure you've allready figure'd it out and Avatar explained all that.

I'm all for a "u sure" button on the missclick grounds. I don't mind presonally dying to inatention, and all that, but whatever the dev's'd like to think the game they've made is more of a puzzle than a roguelike, and the fact that you can manually press a spell hotkey a milisecond after you click attack instead of before and die to it brings in a veritable dexterity hazard into a very, very turn based game. I've often joked that the CYDSTEPP glyph's entire balancing is that it adds a manual dexterity hazard which can kill you (that statement used to be 100% true once).

I've been over it before - the DP mechanic is a deathtrap, and when I made video's people noticed I never use the glyph hotkeys even when spamming fireballs with a 30+ mana pool but insted mouse click them one by one. It looks insane, it is insane, it's not fun at all, and I'm forced to do it if I wan't to create those "optimal playing circumastances" because I'm 30 minutes into Gaan'Telet with an excessive loadout and might be making a video which I'll have to do all over again because of someone's possibly unaccurate notions.

Maybe the game would be less addictive, I don't know, but I wouldn't feel like I'm being trolled by whoever hasn't coded the warning into it yet, and if the game ends up being moddable in any way you can be pretty sure that'll be the first thing modded into it. You can also be pretty sure that there will be an interesting percentage of people who'll try the game, get very annoyed with the "hotkey misclick" or "DP unattention" specificaly, leave, and come back and enjoy it a lot after some acquaintance convinces them that there is a mod on steam worshop that almost everybody is using that deals with that.

Srry for the tone, and srry for lack of videos and involment lately, guys.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby xspeedballx on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:59 pm

Please understand I do not get into these discussions to be "right." I get in to just explain my thoughts. I would(and do) do so if everyone or no one agrees with me. I don't feel my thoughts are any better or worse than anyone else. I just figure if they get people thinking(devs or otherwise) that's a good thing. This game would not necessarily be worse for having the pop up and in fact I am pretty sure such a pop up would be praised in reviews(which is important). The game also might not be necessarily worse if the orcs were weebles(I like hyperbole). It might just feel inconsistent. There are many games out there that I grow weery of when I get an hour long or more punishment(redo a section) from a tiny mistake so I get the sentiment.

Regardless I just like advocate for people understanding what they ask for. The fact that people can argue so vehemently over a detail like this must make the developers smile because it means they did something good. We all realize that as well or we wouldn't even bother arguing over this.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:59 pm

Having just lost a dungeon run because I tripped over a 1st level AA with death protection (thought I'd cleared the DP before I used WEYTWUT to sequester him for later devouring), I think now is as good a time as any to give my opinion: The sense of danger is part of the game. It doesn't hold your hand, and lets you make your own decisions/actions and live (or die, as the case may be) with the consequences. So no, I feel that the threat of death lying one click away is a part of the game experience and should stay.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:01 pm

I'm sorry if I was too argumentative, must be guilty concience for just lurking and not contributing for a while. You should see the other text wall. In fact, there I agreed with something you specificaly said :)

And I'm not much concerned about this issue, as long as I can find someone (or time) to mod the damn warning in, it'll be considered core before you can say "designing for broaded appeal".

@Darvin: It's not bad decisions (like playing too much or lack of sleep) I'm incredibly annoyed about, it's muscle memory or difference between the pressure thresholds for sensors at the mouse buttons and the keys on the keyboard killing me over and over again which makes the thing insane. It puts the blame for my death straight into the domain of physics, ffs. Tripping over a damned goblin IS part of the game, though :D
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby xspeedballx on Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:05 pm

Lujo you can't possibly be too argumentative. At least not in comparison to when you first showed up and were politely informed to chill ;) You are mellow comparatively. In fact I just wanted people to realize that while I can be fairly stubborn with my thoughts it is not the standard internet "I am right, change your mind" it is more of a "These are my thoughts, do with what you will, happy to discuss and alter as needed."
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby harfatum on Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:26 pm

If it were going to be only for PC, then there would be an argument to not have multiple clicks required before killing yourself, but since this will be on tablets, etc. there is really none. I am glad the devs will implement a "select-first" mechanic at the very least.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:28 pm

@Darvin: It's not bad decisions (like playing too much or lack of sleep) I'm incredibly annoyed about, it's muscle memory or difference between the pressure thresholds for sensors at the mouse buttons

It happens extraordinarily rarely. Rather it is the threat that it could happen at any time that adds

Lujo you can't possibly be too argumentative

I dunno; maybe we should argue over that point?

it is not the standard internet "I am right, change your mind" it is more of a "These are my thoughts, do with what you will, happy to discuss and alter as needed."

These boards have really fostered a culture of mutual respect. It's an example of what can happen when a community comes together and rejects uncivilized behavior.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:47 pm

Darvin wrote:
@Darvin: It's not bad decisions (like playing too much or lack of sleep) I'm incredibly annoyed about, it's muscle memory or difference between the pressure thresholds for sensors at the mouse buttons

It happens extraordinarily rarely. Rather it is the threat that it could happen at any time that adds


Sayes you, (and I agree with the threat of it adding a layer of paranoia), but it happened to me so often that I gave up on CYDSTEPP and Warlords entirely. And it's common knowledge I don't give up easily. (Also must've influenced why I always preffered more physical strats to glyph heavy ones)

Now I'm wondering why exactly am I so peristant in pursuing this particular issue. It just feels so out of place - you can actually avoid it all togather by simply not touching certain mechanics, and by using a suboptimal way to use glyphs. I mean, if you don't use DP's it can't happen, if you click on BURNDAYRAZ and then click on monsters it doesn't happen.

If it happens you die.

Due to no fault of your own, no fault of your reasoning, no failed gameplan, it's not even a missclick such as ones that have been aleviated by some helpfull stuff the devs allready did with clicks registering and whatnot (that reduced the "something popped up and when I clicked on the game window the game decided I clicked on a monster" kind of misclick which was equaly as annoying).

So because of it certain mechanics have a literal manual dexterity hazard, heck, an optional way of simply using the GUI can kill you (and has killed me dozens of times), but if you do the same exact things by another out of game method - you won't die, you will in fact beat the dungeon.

It's like - don't use the hotkeyes, theyre a deathtrap! :D

It's insane.

EDIT: I've figured it out, it goes deeper than that. For real, no joke.

That was what innitially caused me to ignore what most other people on the forums were doing. That sort of thing just doesn't happen to a monk - so I was more inclined to ignore BURNDAYRAZ and CYDSTEPP and in fact ended up playing a whole different game just by stubbornly and purpusefully ignoring what was from my perspective a borderline deal breaking UI issue. So keep in mind that things like that can happen, unless the person doesn't just quit after the Xth time he died through no fault of his own.

If my hands were paralyzed, god forgive, and I dictated to a robot or an assistant what moves to make, it wouldn't've ever happened. It can be that big of a deal.
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