First!

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Re: First!

Postby Lujo on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:37 pm

How about the flavor for Mystic balance said it only applied to non-hermfull glyphs? PISSORF wouldn't mind (and the wizard wouldn't be as gimped), and fireball users would be restricted to picking up flames if they want to get fireballey.

Just a note, unless crystall ball gets a serious nerf, flames is actually a good boon. You can get really, REALLY silly with bloodmages (I actually rffectively fireball spammed naga city to death with no gods but mysterea and practicaly miser).

As for APHEELSICK - I'm not completely sure you're not overreacting. You ARE right about it being rather useless in the early game, and it does cut the assasin off from what is my favourite tactic as well, but the old effect was factually broken, and so was the assasin. All the time. People were converting old APHEELSICK on start the way it was, and right now, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't convert it on sight for:

wizards, assasins, monks, rogues, berserkers, tinkers, fighters, sorcerers... practicaly anything that melles. Sure, it costs a bit less than a fireball, but at some point it still means you get to stack it every five steps to shut down a monsters regeneration - which still allows you to break a fundamental rule of the game. It's better on regen fighters (and silly on monks), but it's a blackspace fueled glyph - small wonder. Honestly, the only thing any class but the berserker needs to beat any dungeon with mana based damage right now (or so I suspect) is prepping crystal ball and/or running into B2P, and you might prep mysterea for extra sillyness.

B2P is insane at any point of the game, but is in fact useless to (edit) non-spellcasters - I don't mind apheelsick only being usefull to melee guys.

Am I wrong somewhere?
Last edited by Lujo on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First!

Postby Darvin on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:07 pm

How about the flavor for Mystic balance said it only applied to non-hermfull glyphs? PISSORF wouldn't mind (and the wizard wouldn't be as gimped), and fireball users would be restricted to picking up flames if they want to get fireballey.

I like it; exempt PISORF and BURNDAYRAZ, then cause the balance-point to be 4. It'll be a nerf to the Berserker (who would no longer be able to get 6 MP fireballs this way), but for everyone else it'll open up a huge number of glyphs that get half-benefit and grant full benefit to ENDISWAL.

As for APHEELSICK - I'm not completely sure you're not overreacting. You ARE right about it being rather useless in the early game, and it does cut the assasin off from what is my favourite tactic as well, but the old effect was factually broken, and so was the assasin. All the time.

Perhaps, but it certainly wasn't the strongest glyph in the game. It had nothing on pre-nerf GETINDARE, and I'd say that HALPMEH, BLUDTUPOWA, warlord CYDSTEPP, and BURNDAYRAZ were all stronger overall. I'm aware it could do some crazy things if you were tricked out, but that's true of lots of stuff in this game.

wizards, assasins, monks, rogues, berserkers, tinkers, fighters, sorcerers... practicaly anything that melles.

Wizards - at 4 MP they effectively got a better buff out of the mana cost decrease than everyone else. Assassins get +40% attack bonus on poisoned enemies; if it wasn't for that I'd be very, very tempted to convert it on sight, and if I saw an altar of GG at level 1 I wouldn't hesitate to trade in my venomous ways. Monks/Berserkers - powerful resistances, I'd agree that they get value here. Tinker - if you're resist stacking, sure, but otherwise I don't see it. Rogues have to actually survive an attack in the first place; you're better off focusing more heavily on damage-spiking. Fighters - I really don't see it; fighters are horrible regen-fighters and I'll take the CP in this case. Sorcerers are going to reclaim significant health on casting at low-levels which will offset poison's backloading, so I'd agree with you on that one.

My convert-on-sight list would be Fighters, Warlords, Thieves, Rogues, Priests, Paladins [already have HALPMEH], Bloodmages, Transmuter, Crusader, non-resist-stacking Tinkers, Half-Dragon, and Vampire. That's a lot of classes I wouldn't even consider this glyph for. Way too many.


B2P is insane at any point of the game, but is in fact useless to spellcasters - I don't mind apheelsick only being usefull to melee guys.

I presume you mean that B2P is useless to non-spellcasters. This is untrue; B2P can be useful for cracking physical-resist or mana-burn enemies, or for comboing with a damage-spiking combo (fireball chain followed by death protection and first strike) or utilizing health that would otherwise be wasted due to where the thresholds fall. It's a great glyph, and while its primary use is for spellcasters everyone can make use of it.
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Re: First!

Postby The Avatar on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:17 pm

B2P can be great with melee characters, especially if you can get CYDSTEPP, GETINDARE or both.
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I speak chaos.
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Re: First!

Postby Naoya on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:22 am

Didn't know that light foot overrode First Strike.
But Swift Hands should still be able to kill a below-level first striker without reatilation, should'n it?
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Re: First!

Postby Darvin on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:24 am

But Swift Hands should still be able to kill a below-level first striker without reatilation, should'n it?

Yes, these are two separate things. Swift Hands remains an auto-kill against lower-level foes with the only caveat being curse (not that assassins care too much about that).
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Re: First!

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:21 am

Well, what I ment with APHEELSICK and B2P comparisons was that B2P can give anyone a distinctly spellcastery advantage on its own, while APHEELSICK, (with possible repeated casts) can give anyone lvl/dependent regen fighting capabilities on a stick.

I mean, I used to slap old Poison boon onto pretty much anyone, and on this last playthrough, before the nerf, I've been using APHEELSICK a lot with just about anything. Now, TT's poison boon can probably be mentioned somewhere when they give a speach at my funeral, but I managed to never learn to appriciate the old APHEELSICK before (except with assasins obviously). So the way I see it, it's not a nerfed APHEELSICK glyph it's a more balanced The Hack which doesn't require me to jump through hoops for TT to get it and costs a bit of mana.

Might still need tweaks though, it's not that I think you're really wrong, I'm just trying to illustrate a different way of looking at it.

And, err, has anyone tried combining it with B2P yet? It's not really scummable, but I bet you can do silly bussiness with that combo.
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Re: First!

Postby Blovski on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:57 am

Eh, I don't like the new Apheelsick just because of how much less simple it is.
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Re: First!

Postby Nurator on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:35 am

I think I am one the few people how really play monk in Vicious scenarios... and I must say, he is pretty overpowered. The change to the venom dagger is another huge buff to him (effectively +2base dmg each level). Apheelsick was never an option next to burndayraz, even the old form. So there is no loss there.

I understand that you want to encourage regenfighting, but is is really silly in the moment :) Monk is one of the easiest classes to breeze through Naga City for example^^

But if you want to encourage that even further:
Maybe Mysteras Flames Buff could increase the Regen-Reduction by 1 (would give this boon another niche and would remind new players that Fireball CAN do that)
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Re: First!

Postby paplaukes on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:22 am

I gotta say I never found out about fireball regen reduction from the game, only saw a few mentions here. Is it explained in the game somewhere?
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Re: First!

Postby Nurator on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:33 am

It is stated in the fireball popup. A monster normally regenerates 1 life per monsterlevel per tile you explore.
If it has the burning effect, this number is reduced by 1, so a lvl 4 monster would only regenerate 3 hp per tile and so on.

It should be explained better :) I agree^^
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