Gorgon Rework Idea

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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby dislekcia on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:20 pm

I'm not sure why people are focusing so much on breaking statues vs breaking the walls next to statues that are hemming you in... I tend to open up 2 paths for every one I shut down with a statue.

Faithless, Parched victory in Slime Pit really wasn't that tricky just now. Magnet Fire meant I could reliably kill higher levels via regen fighting and then switch over to deathgaze combos once enemies got high enough level for it to be more than just a free final blow against enemies with juuuuust too much health to regen down.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:06 pm

dislekcia wrote:I'm not sure why people are focusing so much on breaking statues vs breaking the walls next to statues that are hemming you in... I tend to open up 2 paths for every one I shut down with a statue.


No good reason at all, but some of us seem just inclined to - me especially since I developed a habit of instanly smashing them for the IMAWAL gold during the entire game.

Or for purely nonsense insticts - presonaly, for me, it's what happened during the iconic Heroes of might and magic 3 intro animation (where a medusa petrifies a mage and busts his head off), and I've seen it as a kid many, many times, as back then such animations were rare. But that's just nonsese - however, psych itself isn't: that statue crops up in a place where every other character would have a free passage after doing what you just did (killed a monster), so your mind registers IT (the statue) as a problem and an anomaly.

Or for perfectly legit reasons I'm done restating, and Naoya actually hit the "power issues" on the head. (You could add a bit about spellcasting and stuff, but he's pretty much said enough).

dislekcia wrote:Faithless, Parched victory in Slime Pit really wasn't that tricky just now. Magnet Fire meant I could reliably kill higher levels via regen fighting and then switch over to deathgaze combos once enemies got high enough level for it to be more than just a free final blow against enemies with juuuuust too much health to regen down.


Again, power level be damned, I bet you, me, or anyone could post incredible wins, credible wins, and fair losses with the Gorgon, but no other character could cause as many incredible and specific screwups or class-specific screwups as the Gorgon.

But, if no rework, no rework, you guys are the bosses come what may. But please - gold on statues. Please.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:12 pm

And I just had a miser parched victory with her in the Slime Pits. Preps were Crystall Ball, Compression, Bet on boss, no church prep, extra attack, health, mana, dodge, whoopaz and schaden.

Found B2P, APHEELSICK and Mysterea. CB, B2P and APHEELSICK won it, I could've probably gone hoarder and faitless, and for all practical purposes I was playing a gimped assasin... Or anybody, really - I had HALPMEH on board with a supposed resist stacker and natural poisoner, but there was no need to even pick it up. I only converted ENDISWALL once the boss fight started for a lark (got one fireball out of Refreshment)... Didn't pick anything up. Could've gotten specialist if I just killed the SMM first, as he did take at least one melle hit for whoopaz (poison was applied to the Goo through APHEELSICK out of childish spite and because health was better used to fuel B2P).

Also had a bunch of B2P fodder exploration in the basement.

On the other hand this is obviously doable on the first try, without vicious rewards, and unfavourable subdungeons:

Image

But that, again, was also obviously done by avoiding the way she was ment to be played. I offer it as an appology to anyone who thought I'm whining about the theoretical lack of power in the gorgon. I still don't think she could've done 2 bosses at this difficulty unless those statues gave off gold. And I think I can pretty much tell what she can and can't do - despite all my failings as a person, and the occasional annoying and spammy fixation on an issue, I'm still one of the veteran brigade heavyweights on playskill merits, and my expirience with resistance stacking poisoners is rather huge.

Also, having rolled the Rock Garden with her just now, I figured out what's so annoying - the "starts with ENDISWALL" play leads to an overexploratory kind of gameplay. It's kind of why I find Binloring up the map distastefull - last time we were overexploring, you guys (the devs) didn't like it and changed the dungeon exploration system and the XP curve. Then guys started to undo these (wellcome) changes by prepping ole broken Binlor, so he then got nerfed.

I adjusted to the new way the game plays wholeheartedly, and I see the current Gorgon as the one guy who can and must play the game in a way which was deemed disruptive enough to warrant some big and impactfull changes. Yeah, ok, I can dig that there can be one guy who still gets to binlor down the entire map and overexplore by default, and there is twisted balancing to the whole "mind how much you overexplore", but I never liked that sort of gameplay and still find it a bit distastefull.

And, err, gold on statues - would help with all those cases where she has to do trickshots or really unfavourable dungeons.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby gjaustin on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:44 pm

dislekcia wrote:I'm not sure why people are focusing so much on breaking statues vs breaking the walls next to statues that are hemming you in... I tend to open up 2 paths for every one I shut down with a statue.

Faithless, Parched victory in Slime Pit really wasn't that tricky just now. Magnet Fire meant I could reliably kill higher levels via regen fighting and then switch over to deathgaze combos once enemies got high enough level for it to be more than just a free final blow against enemies with juuuuust too much health to regen down.


Honestly, I don't know why they're focusing on it so much either. I have no problems with getting trapped in.

I really like the Gorgon, I just wish she could get a little something to make playing her a little more reliable. Even just something as small as giving her both physical and magical resist.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Lujo on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:55 pm

Same deal, really, apart from not liking the curent setup, blah, blah. Btw did I mention that Warmonger run was a Binlor Monotheism affair?

And a Hoarder in shifting passages just now, but again - Mystera, Crystall Ball and B2P can beat anythign with anything, I guess...
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Blovski on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:13 am

Well, I just beat Dragon Isles with her. Unstoppable with a couple of death protections from Yin/Yang and a couple of potions to spare. Didn't get Soul Orb, which I'd been hoping for tbh. Got the bear mace subdungeon, which probably helped.

Basically, if you can cope with Dragon Isles and have stuff to spare I think your power level's probably alright (certainly Gorgon beats Half-Dragon on that level). My objection with Gorgon as-is is that not playing Binlor is basically punishing for her - TT doesn't like getting hit, GG doesn't like Poison, the otherwise excellent Drac and EM both want bloodpools and Taurog doesn't like casting, which you more or less have to do without Binlor.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby q 3 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:11 am

If the Gorgon's affinity for Binlor really is a problem, why not adopt the same solution as for the Vampire/Dracul problem - make the Gorgon forced faithless. She would need some sort of buff to compensate, but it would get rid of the apparent no-brained deity combo. (Heck, make Half-dragon forced faithless as well and have that be one of the common traits of all monster classes. "No reverence for the wicked.")
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Blovski on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:12 am

I'd rather not, I mean, at the moment you can do a few interesting things with Binlor and conv out to Dracul/Earthmother... you're just generally cut off from a lot of piety sources if you aren't playing Binlor until Mid-Game at least. And with compulsory faithless you'd need a pretty huge buff to bring her near the vamp's power level. Going with Mystera is also a possibility at the moment... maybe poison/fireball antics with the venom dagger, though a little less appealing and I'm not sure if that's cut out for Vicious. I haven't tried Jehora with her yet... he might work OK. (Also, half-dragon without prepped JJ or Taurog would make me sad)
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The synergy with Binlor comes from a few things, Might on wall destruction, piety from Endiswal you'd be doing anyway, bonus Endiswal glyph gives you 100 extra CP and MR lets you regen fight magic attackers. And finally, after playing as Binlor for half the game you can convert out to Drac or EM and have bloodpools ready, or swap to Taurog and have the map clear enough that no casting isn't a big deal.

Also, effectively, with Binlor, 5 piety stored and 12 mana you can get off 2 63% and 1 65% phys. resistance attack with Might on all three before regenning (with new stacking poison, which I currently quite like, consecutive hits becomes more important). Prepped Smugglers for extra walls is essential to this.
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My thing is more it'd be nice if she had something that'd let her use the other gods a little. Liiike, a Rock Heart effect when she smashes statues (+1 mana and +1 health/level, like Rock Heart, only applies to the first Statue broken by Binlor effects). I mean, with the Gorgon's glyph loadout and strengths being what they are I think it's impossible to give her anything really that doesn't benefit the Binlor combo but if you maybe gave a little more incentive to open up bloodpools then playing with Earthmother or Drac wouldn't be such a drag.

That said, that effect would have to be additional to the current lot and there's not a lot of text room left, and it would make Binlorgons a tad stronger.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby paplaukes on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:45 am

Haven't played gorgon yet. Just a small suggestion for EM piety - gorgon turns mobs into stone. EM supposedly likes that. Could dish some piety out.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Lujo on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:26 am

I whish I taped the warmonger run - you can do straight Binlor warmonger with her (ok, well, not straight since I did pick a consensus up, but still). What Blovski said - there's too much text there, yet we still find her lacking.

Anyway she seems to be made for an overexploratory approach which leaves statues alone, and my rework suggestion was for making her into a straight up poison/resist/deathgaze guy with a monk-like attack penalty compensated by having a built in midas and DING! power coming from IMAWAL.

Binlor doesn't really need another dedicated worshiper - he's all upside the way he is, he takes any map out on his own as far as wall destruction is concerned, he's a steady source of both magical resists and lowering enemy resists, he has a very insignificant desecration penalty, very few ways to lose piety / get punished, he provides a free PISSORF, his piety acquisition fills up CB which is synergistic with PISSORF, and he also provides two extra glyphs which you can use to fuel Refreshment with if you Swap to Mysterea. He's also got a piety spike for dwarves/halfings/big health guys.

I whish the Gorgon wasn't so synergistic with him, because the concept is strong and deep enough to be turned on it's head and give someone else a chance to shine. Maybe even too strong - 5 poison per level is actually very workable on a resistances guy, even if deathgaze isn't the strongest conversion bonus out there...
Last edited by Lujo on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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