Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby Dunno on Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:27 pm

How about making WEITWUT stack dodge (like ENDISWAL does with resist) instead of slowing enemies?
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby Galefury on Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:42 pm

Why? WEYTWUT is awesome as is. Slowing allows for some fun tricks that are currently not available any other way.
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby GG Crono on Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:11 pm

q 3 wrote:I'm warming up to the idea of giving Rogues one or two guaranteed one-time dodges, since that gives them about the same benefit that they currently have but makes the player choose when to use it. More player choices means more player strategizing and less player-cursing-the-RNG, which means more fun. :)


You know, something like this I could get behind. I kind of like it better than my original idea. Less prone to abuse. :)
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby q 3 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Fighters

Although their abilities tend to make them a good "baby's first class," they can still hold their own later on. Fighters are probably the most jack-of-all-trades class; since their class abilities don't really force them into any particular play style, they can adapt to whatever the dungeon throws at them without giving up on their own skills. I've found them to work pretty well with Glowing Guardian, their bonus exp making them one of the best candidates to reach level 10 after using Humility (i.e., with level 11 stats) and their monster sense making it easy to track down candidates for Sanctify; they work about as well with Taurog as anyone else, and their inherent death protect is basically +25 free piety; they should also work quite well with Tikki Tooki now, since he likes it when you kill weak enemies and Fighters are all about killing weak enemies (doubling the effectiveness of their bonus exp makes it even sweeter).
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby dislekcia on Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:18 am

TigerKnee wrote:There's actually a strategy you can use with dodge, as long as you even have the slightest bit of dodge chance, AS LONG as you can survive more than 1 hit from whatever you're trying to kill.

Let's say you need 3 hits to kill a higher level enemy, but you can only manage to trade 2 blows as a Dwarf Rogue before you die.

Hit the enemy. Did you dodge?

No - Regenerate your health. Hit the enemy again.
Yes - Congratulations. You can now hit the enemy 2 more times at full health which means you can kill it.

Very much in theory you can use it to kill enemies that require 4 hits, 5 hits etc but of course your chance of dodging twice in a row is drastically lower. It IS possible though and if you pull it off you could get a giant slingshot.


Talking solely as a player right now:

I use this tactic when I hit that point in a run where you've got no enemies that you can reasonably kill at your level and you're going to be wasting regen as you explore anyway (even if you have a summon glyph you're still going to be wasting the health regen while getting your mana back) so why not hit something too high for you to kill and see if you'll get lucky?

I also really enjoy getting a dodge randomly in combat and going "hey, I can survive a hit vs that higher level enemy over there now", nailing something with what is essentially free health and then leveling up on the thing I just dodged, leaving me an easy next kill.

Dodge is one of my favorite mechanics in the game, so this has been fueling some interesting discussion today ;)
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby q 3 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:23 pm

The current dodge mechanic is... quite powerful when combined with death protection and a large mana pool. ;)

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Not sure if this means it's actually broken - I completely lucked out a couple of times here, although granted I probably wouldn't have needed as much luck if I'd played more optimally (completely forgot about that Badge of Courage when I actually needed it, forgot that Tikki Tooki heavily punishes death protection but fortunately had Dracul as my third altar [GG or Taurog would have been impossible to desecrate]). I do still think that Orcs are too strong (or, alternatively, most of the other races are too weak in comparison).
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby q 3 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:08 pm

Okay, this is mostly shameless bragging but I will now say that Orc Rogue + CYDSTEPP is way overpowered.

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So that's the two nastiest bosses in the game thus far taken down without preparations - and I'll also note that I used very different tools each time. Against Namtar it was Mystera (extra mp and lots of piety) -> Tikki Tooki (Tikki Edge, extra dodge, lots of gold) -> Mystera (to avoid getting punished for using death protection) with lots of items bought; against the Avatar I went Glowing Guardian (Humility + Absolution for level gains and piety, then Enlightenment) -> Dracul (sacrificing all of my HP for extra max MP, and taking a level of lifesteal solely for piety to compensate for his punishing death protection) with no items bought. I'm not sure how this strategy should be nerfed, but I am sure that it should be nerfed.
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby q 3 on Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:14 pm

One idea I had, if you don't want to tinker with the dodge mechanic too much, would be to change CYDSTEPP from death protection to something like a temporary 95% damage resistance. That would have the same effect in most circumstances, but you would actually have to keep an eye on your HP and max HP, with Rogues and Dracul worshipers actually feeling some ill effect from their reduced health; it would also make other sources of death protection more valuable, giving a much needed (IMO) boost to Fighters and to Namtar's Ward. Warlords would end up taking a bit of a hit, since this would make it trickier for them to activate their +30% damage boost, but set the MP cost to 9 or even 8 and I think that should even things out for them.
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby Darvin on Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:41 pm

Okay, this is mostly shameless bragging but I will now say that Orc Rogue + CYDSTEPP is way overpowered.

In total agreement. CYDSTEPP'er rogues have always been ridiculously powerful, and with all the different ways we now have to boost base damage and mana they're totally off the charts. The bonus of actually having the staying power for dodge to become somewhat predictable (if you attack 5 times, you have a very good chance of dodging at least once) is just another immense benefit.

The problem with CYDSTEPP is that using it repeatedly effectively lets you ignore your HP, but taking away its ability to be used repeatedly makes it far too similar to WEYTWUT and GETINDARE. In many situations, a non-repeatable CYDSTEPP would be strictly inferior to GETINDARE. Nerfing CYDSTEPP would also require a significant buff to the Warlord, if not an outright reworking of the class because he's so dependent on this glyph in a way that none of the other T3 classes are.
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby Wargizmo on Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:35 am

I don't see why the Tier3 class glyphs should drop randomly in dungeons in the first place. The rogue+CYDSTEPP is not the only overpowered combo possible, getting Bloodpower and Heal in the same game is pretty ridiculous. By making these glyphs available to all classes you're by and large cheapening all the tier3 heroes as well as destroying the uniqueness of those classes. I'd prefer if the Tier 3 glyphs were only available to the Tier 3 heroes.
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