The high end potions and the difficulty curve

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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby paplaukes on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:08 am

Might want to read this and dislekcia's reply: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2514 :)

I don't think preps are a trainer only. I mean, purist normal dungeons, ok, purist hard ones - I'm not that much into pain thank you very much. Unlocks give you some power to keep up, but the hard dungeons still give you extra trouble.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby Bloggorus on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:11 am

q 3 wrote:What if the potion preps were changed from 5 slots that you can fill with anything, to a purchase system where you can spend up to X kingdom gold at the Witch's hut and buy whatever potions you want. The hax potions would cost a lot more, and you would be allowed to buy duplicates - so a 40 gold cap would let you take, say, two health potions and two mana potions, but if you took a Quicksilver and Reflex potion then you couldn't afford anything else.

I mean, I personally view preparations as being the equivalent of a trainer, i.e., cheat codes, there to put the game on easy mode if you're having trouble or you just want to mess around. But I'm not altogether sure what the devs actually think about them, since the church preps are completely counter to that idea. It is kind of bizarre that you're free to bring in all the top-tier potions and wreak havoc, but you're not allowed to simply prep GG or JJ or Dracul (for the sole purpose of not having to scum for them) without suffering crippling penalties.


I just think potions haven't been looked at because few players have complained in the same way they did when church preps had no downside.

I think this issue is very similar, but not as obvious, probably because it has take players time to properly assess their impact.

As far as purchasing potions go, I'd say adding higher kingdom gold costs is not going to fix the root cause, just make it more annoying to save up gold for.

Imposing some kind of limitation that has an in-game effect, just like the altar preps, is probably the way to go.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby Bloggorus on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:14 am

paplaukes wrote:Might want to read this and dislekcia's reply: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2514 :)

I don't think preps are a trainer only. I mean, purist normal dungeons, ok, purist hard ones - I'm not that much into pain thank you very much. Unlocks give you some power to keep up, but the hard dungeons still give you extra trouble.


Yep, hard dungeons are meant to be HARD. But that player's issue was thay they didnt feel they'd leanred anough up to that point to succeed.

Managing that curve so the player is always learning is one of the challenges of game design.

Good example, the Penny Arcade classic balancing for skill --> http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episod ... -for-skill

Giving players trainers mean they don't learn the game, and get major pissed when they hit a wall.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby q 3 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:43 am

Bloggorus wrote:As far as purchasing potions go, I'd say adding higher kingdom gold costs is not going to fix the root cause, just make it more annoying to save up gold for.


The idea was that, if you prepped the really strong potions, you wouldn't be able to take a full slate of 5. But if you only took mana/health potions, you could take extras of either (or both). It would at least encourage some variety and more careful consideration in potion selection.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby Bloggorus on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:51 am

Ah, I see, my mistake. That could work well.

My solution involved removing a shop (apothecaries first) or something similar for every potion you take in above the base pair.

Or make any potions you take in other than the base pair add some poisoning, like toxicity in the witcher games. Could be a cool way to utilise the new poison mechanic.

Or just keep the slots at 2 and prep apoth if you want potions.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby paplaukes on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:03 pm

And the discussion to make it harder continues :)
Just remember it's rewards you're discussing to make weaker. Harsh quests with minor payoff? Bleh.
Also remember they're like training wheels - at first you use everything, but when you get confident, they come off. However without them, you just get fed up trying. You learn less that way.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby Lujo on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:45 pm

paplaukes wrote:Also remember they're like training wheels - at first you use everything, but when you get confident, they come off.


Except they don't. That's the thing.

It seems to be a bit hard to grasp at times, but some things are so powerful that they give people an iluison that things are "doable", when in fact things aren't necessarily. The same guys made the entire game - if you have, say 1 way of dealing with, I don't know, rock garden, and they "take it away from you", what they have given you is an opportunity to complain about Rock Garden - which can possibly then be changed to not warrant such power/skill. But you cant complain if they know you've been given artificial power boosters - the argument that you haven't found the boosters will simply be there.

For example this vicious badge - I'm beating vicious stuff handily for the most part (haven't been to the trickiest places yet, but I'm putting effort into not putting effort into it). Take away whoopaz and quicksilver from me - I'd have to scum for stuff. Then I can say - please, tone the vicious mode down it's mandating needlessly unfun gameplay. And that's a legit argument. If those things are an option - then by not taking that option I'm not "playing it right" because I'm artificaly making the game harder.

Or the PQI - before the GG nerf you could absolution your way through any (really, any) run. Realy fast, too. If you just used that on every run you didn't like, and played every one you did like, you could say "oh, PQI is fine" - except someone not aware of the unintuitive power of absolving everything would have a very different expirience, and quite possibly a rather unpleasant and chorish one if he had to attempt to play every warmonger elf assasin run without such a "cheat code".

If old absolution is in there - then the only thing you can ask for is "Make a PQI tutorial which teaches players how to skip the unfun ones using GG, so everyone can do it". If you simply remove absolution as an option, you can legitly ask "How am I supposed to do a bunch of these things?", and then stuff can actually be looked into.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby xspeedballx on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:42 pm

Powerful tools are always more powerful in the hands of more powerful players. So you should take them away because the game is too easy for the powerful player even if it smooths over some sharp edges for the lesser player? Reminding you, Witch quest 5 & 6 are NOT easy. Even with a "guide" on how to do it, a new player will spend a significant amount of time trying to complete that. You now have a choice about completing those(and spending LOTS of gold doing it), or doing other missions without those potions. Once you have the potions you have earned the benefits of them(prep costs still go up during a time of hard cash flow).

Most of your complaints are post game complaints, and not only that POST POST game complaints. Like was said we need to be careful on the idea of nerfing things because they make things too easy for YOU(being collective vets), because it could easily do a lot of harm to the hopeful influx of new players when this game goes live.

Honestly, I think we should all spend a lot more time and energy documenting full strategies(like the acid caster one), and posting them on the wiki, documenting how to approach every dungeons with every class(like alpha had), and create a robust and welcoming set of information for new players. Post game balance will actually come from that detailed set of information I am sure.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby paplaukes on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:49 pm

Sorry Lujo but you've pushed for harder NORMAL dungeons. It's clear to me you forgot how a new player might perceive the game. I'll let myself quote the other thread:
FunnyMan3595 wrote:So much difficulty gets added all at once that you end up struggling to fight the basic enemies, leaving you mentally worn out by the time you hit the bosses, even if you've managed to preserve your character's resources. And after limping your way through that dungeon, it's on to the next one, which is just as hard if not worse.

I've been there. I nearly quit the game. If it wasn't for the extras I earned and unlocked, I would've just stopped playing. All hard, all the time just sucks. Doing normal dungeons all day long isn't an answer either. This isn't a job. It's supposed to be fun. Headbanging brickwalls isn't fun.

Yes the training wheels do come off. One might start with full 200g preparation for something. Then realize they didn't even use all that. Bring less, and less. Then dare a PQI suggested purist. Definitely not the other way around.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby Lujo on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:41 pm

Ok, one more time.

If the game needs training weels of this size then the game is too hard. If the non-vets are so thrilled to be able to finally get anywhere with this kind of help that they can't see this thread as anything other then "they're trying to take my toys away", then the game is too hard as it is. This is my argument, has always been.

You nearly quit the game? I've been there - I'm STILL there. My "tirade" about the vicious badge? Complete newbies can find a wiki and copy a "training weels galore" strat to get them to the PQI, and then what? Back to the old training wheels, and you're supposed to do it, too, because the PQI sayes that the game is ment to be so hard that all you learned isn't supposed to compensate for not busting out a trisword. -.-

It's degrading, guys. If the only way to have a fun, and not a frustrating expirience is to rely on stuff that removes the challenge to the degree that trisword, potions or old absolution does, and we're in a beta - the thing to do is to complain. If the bloodmage nerf makes him unplayable for you - the problem is with the game, not with the bloodmage - because you can really easily beat most regular (and some post post) stuff with him. I can make a vid, explain how you do it, you can copy it and beat pretty much every regular dungeon with ease. But the game is obviously not teaching this.

What's the point of documenting "strats" if the strats are just demo's of finding well above curve stuff and saying "this and this belongs in another game/difficulty mode use this to skip whatever's giving you trouble"? What'd that achieve, if anything other than that can be achieved?
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