Suggestion - Warning

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby FDru on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:06 pm

dislekcia wrote:While I understand your frustration, it seems to be mostly around hardware that doesn't perform correctly, that sucks :( I assume that only certain types of games work ok with your current setup?

Your hardware situation makes your case different to the general user experience that we've been measuring, the best thing to fix your frustration is either getting a new mouse, or us adding different types of control/input schemes. I'm not sure why the development on the selection-style interface stopped, but I'll poke everyone about it next week to see what's up with that... We definitely do want to provide different ways of interacting with the game, instead of changing the game's inherent feel. I hope that makes sense.


While I agree this is a problem on the player's end, I notice it happening to me way too often as well. I do buy quality gaming mice but this problem still tends to crop up every 2-3 months or so (playing MOBAs probably doesn't help mouse longevity, lol). A simple way to "fix" this would be to put in a mouse repeat input delay (of .5 seconds or something) if that's possible.

If I were to suggest an alternative input method, I'd say do something like Dungeon Crawl. Numeric hotkeys to move, keyboard shortcuts to activate spells, enter to cast them, 1-6 to activate items and a spunky new way to convert (like a hotkey that puts focus on your inventory items so you can choose one, or choose the convert button for items on the ground). Though it would probably be better to have a "targeting square" to move rather than square-by-square movement, since that would be less tedious.
User avatar
FDru
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:41 am

Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby paplaukes on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:37 pm

I was reluctant to post pretty much what Weltall Zero posted. You're right, it's a hardware issue, but then again, DD is the only place where it really matters.
User avatar
paplaukes
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:25 pm

Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby dislekcia on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:21 pm

FDru wrote:While I agree this is a problem on the player's end, I notice it happening to me way too often as well. I do buy quality gaming mice but this problem still tends to crop up every 2-3 months or so (playing MOBAs probably doesn't help mouse longevity, lol). A simple way to "fix" this would be to put in a mouse repeat input delay (of .5 seconds or something) if that's possible.


That's already in the game. We do a LOT of stuff to input in order to try and sanitise it, but we really can only go so far.

Both Aeq and I have had rapid-repeat-click problems with our mouses during the development of DD. We're pretty hard on mouses too (HotS thinks I play at 250 APM) so we've had a lot of chance to test out this kind of hardware failure.
User avatar
dislekcia
 
Posts: 1637
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:58 pm
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Weltall Zero on Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:33 pm

dislekcia wrote:While I understand your frustration, it seems to be mostly around hardware that doesn't perform correctly, that sucks :( I assume that only certain types of games work ok with your current setup?

Your hardware situation makes your case different to the general user experience that we've been measuring, the best thing to fix your frustration is either getting a new mouse, or us adding different types of control/input schemes. I'm not sure why the development on the selection-style interface stopped, but I'll poke everyone about it next week to see what's up with that... We definitely do want to provide different ways of interacting with the game, instead of changing the game's inherent feel. I hope that makes sense.


To be one hundred percent precise, what I use is a trackball, with my left hand to boot, due to a injury on my right hand last year. The double clicking issues aren't a problem on FTL, and I don't play many mouse-based games as they tend to require the use of a keyboard on your left; I even play GW2 with a gamepad. This unusual setup definitely accounts for less accuracy and probably double-clicking issues.
Still, I've owned plenty of mice that had over-sensitive buttons and double-clicked now and then; and this very thread is proof that I'm not alone in this. I've been thinking about this issue, and the thing is that I'm not so sure about selecting before attacking, either, as I suspect that would slow down combat. I think a much simpler, general and elegant solution would simply be that there was a delay after clicking before a second click registered. It doesn't need to be long; perhaps just as long as the "chop" sound effect. This would certainly alleviate one half of the issue. As for the other, i.e. intending to move and attacking instead, why not use the right mouse button? Left click is move (and select, perhaps), right click is attack. It's even orthogonal with a lot of other games, too.

For all I know, that is exactly your intention, now that I think about it. Is attacking just "right click" on the new setup, or "left click, then hit key"?

dislekcia wrote:
FDru wrote:While I agree this is a problem on the player's end, I notice it happening to me way too often as well. I do buy quality gaming mice but this problem still tends to crop up every 2-3 months or so (playing MOBAs probably doesn't help mouse longevity, lol). A simple way to "fix" this would be to put in a mouse repeat input delay (of .5 seconds or something) if that's possible.


That's already in the game. We do a LOT of stuff to input in order to try and sanitise it, but we really can only go so far.


Then something is definitely wrong, because I just tested and double clicking attacks twice. I clicked twice as fast as I could, which believe me, is REALLY fast, for sure less than 0.1s (the game didn't have time to render the intermediate health state). Could you check that? It really seems like that change was rolled back or something.
Weltall Zero
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:08 pm

Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby FDru on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:26 pm

dislekcia wrote:
FDru wrote:While I agree this is a problem on the player's end, I notice it happening to me way too often as well. I do buy quality gaming mice but this problem still tends to crop up every 2-3 months or so (playing MOBAs probably doesn't help mouse longevity, lol). A simple way to "fix" this would be to put in a mouse repeat input delay (of .5 seconds or something) if that's possible.


That's already in the game. We do a LOT of stuff to input in order to try and sanitise it, but we really can only go so far.


If that's true, it's either not working properly or set at an unnoticeable margin. I can't double-click fast enough to get it to kick in.

Then again, I suppose if it's a mechanical failure then any delay would do since those tend to deliver 2 simultaneous clicks...
User avatar
FDru
 
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:41 am

Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby dislekcia on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:10 am

Yup, most of the protection is against same-frame events and events that don't make sense, but can still sometimes come through (you'd be amazed at what trackpads try to do sometimes).

That said, slowing down attacks is pretty-much an unavoidable side-effect of every other interaction system. I'm sure people will complain about that when they can select the different methods eventually ;) Not so sure about the right-click to attack method, as right click is deselect-glyph at the moment. Would you make right click use a glyph in that setup, how would you stop casting?
User avatar
dislekcia
 
Posts: 1637
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:58 pm
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby xspeedballx on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:36 pm

Reclicking a spell or reusing a hotkey should be able to deselect the glyph without right click?
xspeedballx
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Weltall Zero on Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:46 pm

dislekcia wrote:Yup, most of the protection is against same-frame events and events that don't make sense, but can still sometimes come through (you'd be amazed at what trackpads try to do sometimes).


Could you please exted that protection to a few tenths of second, around half a second or so? It would really, really go a long way towards reducind interface unfriendliness. Many have stated wariness about using the Warlord because of that permanent "accidentally click twice and kiss your last 20 minutes goodbye" feeling. The game even lags/freezes a bit when you click this fast, adding to the feeling of "wrongness".

I can't stress this enough: the game is occasionally almost painful to play now, for all the wrong reasons. I recently read a blog post by you stating that you had lost the perspective for puzzle difficulty and realized that when you sat down to play them after forgetting their solutions. Please don't make the same mistake here. I understand it's hard to get into the mindset of a player trying to play the game and make progress when you yourself have played it to death for entirely different reasons, but if nothing else, please listen to us.

dislekcia wrote:That said, slowing down attacks is pretty-much an unavoidable side-effect of every other interaction system. I'm sure people will complain about that when they can select the different methods eventually ;) Not so sure about the right-click to attack method, as right click is deselect-glyph at the moment. Would you make right click use a glyph in that setup, how would you stop casting?


My idea would be:
[No spell selected]
- Left click: Move
- Right click: Attack
[Spell selected]
- Left click: Cast spell
- Right click: Cancel spell

Pretty much the exact same as right now, only making the command for attacking "right click". This is similar if not identical to most modern MMOs, RTS and MOBA, with the exception of the "move" command in those which have it (which is a special case here, being instant). This, combined with the half-second double click protection, should reduce accidental, interface-based deaths to nearly zero, while not impacting gameplay speed in any meaningful way.
Last edited by Weltall Zero on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Weltall Zero
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:08 pm

Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby The Avatar on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:46 pm

It would be nice if you could choose to keep it as is though. My mouse makes it incredibly hard to right click.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4437
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Weltall Zero on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:17 pm

The Avatar wrote:It would be nice if you could choose to keep it as is though. My mouse makes it incredibly hard to right click.


I couldn't help thinking of this:
http://xkcd.com/1172/
And in turn, feeling sorry for the devs. :D
Weltall Zero
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:08 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron