Vicious Token Talkin'

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Vicious Token Talkin'

Postby sitnaltax on Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:28 am

Just some idle chit chat about the Vicious Token.

1. I really like the presence of the Vicious Token. It really lets an expert go all-out and still struggle, but have a manageable challenge.

2. I've beaten all the dungeons with the Vicious Token, except for Hard Gaan-Talet and all of the natively Vicious dungeons. Of the Hard dungeons, I would say Halls of Steel is the easiest; if you find the Orb of Lusory early, and something to not have to fight Steel Golems, you have it made. Cursed Oasis was probably the toughest. I expected Rock Garden to be easy; I consider it to be one of the easiest Hard dungeons, with its extra spoons and extra popcorn. But it turns out cranking up the difficulty on the bosses means that three of them together end up being quite tough. Conversely, Hexx Ruins was easier than I feared. You don't have enough resources to kill all the monsters and revenants; luckily the monsters I couldn't finish added up to only 36% resists, the boss is relatively weak, and I was able to whittle away those resists with a Piercing Wand.

3. I started with a Dwarf Rogue, which is the combo I used for most Vicious dungeons including VGT, but ended up switching to Human Sorcerer for most of these runs. The ability to heal early on is a big advantage and helps kill those difficult level 2 monsters at level 1. Later on, having the big mana pool is nice, although the healing becomes mostly irrelevant.

4. I mostly prepared Dragon Soul. I don't know whether Namtar's Ward, the Dragon Shield, or heck even the Avatar Codex might be better.

5. An early Balanced Dagger is a huge help, because fighting monsters even one level higher means using resources or a lot of blackspace. Balanced Dagger + WONAFYT is awesome. The Witchalok Pendant is also very nice. By contrast, Martyr Wraps are pretty much worthless unless you happen to hit Super Meat Man I guess. Whrbargl is surprisingly helpful for those big damage spikes on bosses where you put in a melee swing to activate Schadenfreude. An early +HP item is also very nice.

6. The "basic" boss melee attack is 120, and most characters will top out at level 8 (hard to get bonus XP, hard to kill the level 9 monsters), so you either need a way to boost your resists or a way to never take a hit. I ended up using Tikki Tooki a lot; it's not easy, because saving enough popcorn is hard, but Reflexes is a great source of damage. The warlock boss is pretty much untankable.
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Re: Vicious Token Talkin'

Postby The Avatar on Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:45 pm

I agree with what you've said. All very true and helpful points.

The strategy for vicious dungeons (at least Namtar's Lair, Demonic Library, and Dragon Isles) for me was a pure-caster goblin assassin, only attacking when presented with counter fireball (piercing wand or MA's anti-resistance boon for magic res). I'm not sure how to go about doing Naga City or VGT. They seem rather ridiculous, though with enough scumming they are possible. Barely.
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Re: Vicious Token Talkin'

Postby Lujo on Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:48 pm

Really nice - here's some of mine to help variety it up:

I havent done the natural viciouses yet, and I'm really curious about whether and how you've done VVGT (oddly enough I'd go with the binlor + pactmaker gorgon there, should be rather doable). Dragonsoul use made me smile, as well :)

1) My weapon of choice was goblin sorcerer of mysterea with crystal ball. Early heals and bigass mana pool makes him really good for killing higher level opponents even with the token, helps with mooching boons off mysterea and transitions him into a kickass pure spellcaster later, especially with bloodtopower (some late game mileage out of the heals). The goblin random level ups sinergize with all you have and save popcorn for whatever reason, and provide full heals you otherwise wouldn't have.

2) Since mysterea doesn't really work too well in CO, I've resorted to various warlords in there and 1-2 places where spellcasting gets hosed. If a dungeon gives your spellcasters a hard time - it's a good bet that a competently run warlord will run all over it. Thieves are also a surprisingly good choice.

3) If warlords are overkill for you, picking Earthmother over Mysterea is a good choice (brick up high level stuff you wouldn't kill anyway, and go nuts with clearances). For outrageous overkill (in terms of ease of use), you can probably do places with an Earthmother warlord spamming imawal, entanglement and clearances (just don't do this if you need RBS). Codex + Earthmother is likevise reliably silly, and kicks all sorts of ass in places with natural fireball retaliating enemies.

3) I've managed random token wins with odd combos on flaming runs. Rogues, crusaders, fighters, blue bead bloodmages, wizards, thieves... It did usualy involve mysterea (over)use, with the nicely noted TT finishes. I avoided assassins on principle, for the sub-vicious stuff.

4) Otherwise, sitnaltax got it all worked out :)
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Re: Vicious Token Talkin'

Postby sitnaltax on Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:55 pm

Thanks, Avatar and Lujo, for the additional thoughts and ideas. It's neat to see that there are lots of ways to tackle even these toughest challenges.

I don't think there's such a thing as overkill where the Vicious Token is concerned. :)

On the drive to family for Easter I was just thinking about doing Avatar Codex + Earthmother preps for (V)HGT. The level is so open that the additional plants should actually be a boon. I might need to find a lucky Soul Orb.

I've been struggling enough with (V)HGT that I don't think I intend to spend much time worrying about VVGT. A single run takes so long, and I presume you'd have to scum for the right shop items, glyphs, god order, floor penalty order, etc. (I'm also not familiar with the Binlor Gorgon; what makes that strong?)
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Re: Vicious Token Talkin'

Postby Lujo on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:28 pm

sitnaltax wrote:I don't think there's such a thing as overkill where the Vicious Token is concerned. :)


I thought so too, but warlord token runs were so... Easy is the wrong word for it... Warlord runs were so uninteractive that they felt like overkill - you walk in there with a plan, and you pretty much don't care about what dungeon you're playing, what mobs you're killing, what's in the shops, what are the other glyphs, how much damage what does... It was expirience + preps + repeatable cydstepp, I know, but it made the goblin sorcerer look hard, and he was allready visibly stronger than anything else I tried before. And this was the first week of the vicious token, before they toned it down a bit.

sitnaltax wrote:I've been struggling enough with (V)HGT that I don't think I intend to spend much time worrying about VVGT. A single run takes so long, and I presume you'd have to scum for the right shop items, glyphs, god order, floor penalty order, etc. (I'm also not familiar with the Binlor Gorgon; what makes that strong?)


It's not really intuitive and I discovered it by accident but the thing is - it takes the leas ammount of specific scumming imaginable on token-less difficulty. I did it without soul orb / viper ward, getindare or anything. I did have Halpmeh and it helped a lot.

What you do is - prep binlor and scum for pactmaker on the first floor. I prepped the subdungeon and was really, really, really carefull about the early exploration and ENDISWALLING the subdungeon walls to get the might on wall destruction boon from Binlor, consensus for the knockback boon and then picked up body pact and kept spamming stoneskin carefully to get both of my resists up to max eventually (the sooner the better). What happens is - you have max resists (eventually), knockback for 50% base, might up almost all the time from knocking stuff into walls on the lower floors, poison strike and first strike from the conversion bonus. Binlor piety from endiswall and knockback is plentifull, and with so much resists you can ussually save a bunch of popcorn for curse cleanup. And in the end fight you have might (-res) from whatever you do - if you have an IMAWAL saved and switch from binlor, you can create walls and knock bleaty into them.

With the right other preps (dragonshield, salves etc) it was by far the easiest VGT run I've done. Might even be doable with the token.
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Re: Vicious Token Talkin'

Postby The Avatar on Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:24 pm

Wow. I'll have to try it. Hmm... Maybe some variation with Binlor and resist items could work in Naga City. Actually, I would definately appreciate a video on VGT or HGT. I got the jist of the strat, but I'm curious as to how you use it.
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Re: Vicious Token Talkin'

Postby Lujo on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:06 pm

With or without token?

Thing is, I'm really, really short on time these days, and the thing is I'm out of shape in the general playskill areas, so I'd fail at it. I tried to do it in VGT with the token, but the extra stats cost me too much blackspace, and I seem to have forgoten some of my moves from the last time...

HGT I'm not sure is doable that way. I'll give them a shot at some point when I get back into the game again.
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Re: Vicious Token Talkin'

Postby The Avatar on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:35 pm

No problem. I meant VGT, not (V)VGT, but if you don't have time its not your fault. I couldn't get this to work (as in it's a bit too scummy--lost all my money before Pactmaker even showed up on floor 1).
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Re: Vicious Token Talkin'

Postby Waldo0 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:16 pm

I cleared all 100% easy/normal/hard dungeons today.

The most hard dungeon was Hard Gaan-Talet with Vicious Token.
(I manged to win as Human Paladin with Dracul(I used all potions and I drank a last blood pool FTW! :lol: dat moment!!!))

Actually, these dungeons are not that hard if you ready and plan enough.
(I cleared the Hard Gaan-Talet with Vicious Token at 2nd trial)

Anyway, after these runs, I recognized that vetoes will be main keys for clearing harder dungeons, because you can make specific plans for clearing the dungeons.

Now, I have 5(class 4+bank 1) vetoes of 7(The veto prices are 19999, 59999 and I think the last one is 99999 in the bank).

I'll start to clear 100% vicious dungeons after unlocking all 7 vetoes. Another gold grinding time! :x
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Re: Vicious Token Talkin'

Postby The Avatar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:18 pm

Have fun! I managed DI, DL, and NL. NC will be tough and VGT might be impossible. I just realized I forgot VHOS, but it won't be that hard.
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