First 8 gold challenges.

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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Lujo on Sun May 26, 2013 9:02 pm

dislekcia wrote:Yeah. Like I said: ignore/invalidate.

As long as you fail to ask why people could possibly have fun hunting items, you're not going to have a balanced viewpoint.


People have fun shooting up heroin, skydiving and listening to opera. But forcing someone who doesn't enjoy such an activity to participate just because there's someone who can enjoy it is simply wrong.

As far as the functionality of getting an item in your locker or veto slot is concerned, in order to play the actual game, scumming for it or pressing a "screen freezes for some time and the item appears in your veto slot" button is identical. Well, to be fair, if there was such a button it'd be more reasonable to have your comp lock up because then you could go to the bathroom, while the other option right now means starting a venture cave run with a goblin transmuter, holding down the "l" key and then clicking on all the shops, and repeating until the desired item comes up.

In other words - there is an "auto-locker/veto" function right now, for most items in the game, and it only takes willpower to go through an inane routine and RL time spent on it instead of playing Desktop Dungeons. In all other respects it works perfectly - burn enough time and you're guaranteed to veto what you want to veto.

This is undisputable, it's a fact.

Now some people might find it enjoyable to pick a goblin transmuter up and hold down the "l" key, then move a little to regen mana, then hold down the "l" key again, then move a little more, then holding down the "l" key, and then click on all the shops, and repeat until the desired item appears and repeating it for every locker/veto slot they want to change - that's also a fact. My brother used to spend afternoons repeatedly doing solo Baal runs in Diablo 2 (teleport to the guy skipping everything else) for hours and hours on the off chance Baal drops something - I know there are people who enjoy that sort of thing.

But those people being accommodated better than people who actually want to play the game is utter bullshit, to which you could say "that's just your opinion, man", keep ignoring/invalidating it, and continue catering to whoever likes mindless grind. But trying to make it look like I'm in the wrong or that there's something wrong with my reasoning here is just lying.

We suggested a compromise - pay ludicrous gold to not have to scum for a particular item, or scum for a time investment as it is now. That wasn't good enough because "people would be complaining that the price is too steep". Who cares? As long as it stays the way it is now you can't call any complainer an ingrate, because he's got nothing to be grateful for concerning this issue. Insisting on it being fine is just insulting to anyone who isn't into grind and there's no other way to look at it.

If there was an either/or option, you'd have the scummers scumming, and everybody else playing the game, getting the gold for playing the game, and spending the gold to make their game more varied. And all's well. That's also a fact.
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby dislekcia on Sun May 26, 2013 11:25 pm

Lujo, you really do love misrepresenting other people's arguments. Stop doing that.

Perhaps you should consider a time-out again. You're not actually doing much listening and it's getting obnoxious.
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby The Avatar on Sun May 26, 2013 11:27 pm

Can we drop this debate? Nothing good can/will come of it and you're both just getting annoyed at each other.
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Lujo on Sun May 26, 2013 11:32 pm

I'm done with it.

(25 characters)
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby dislekcia on Mon May 27, 2013 12:13 am

The Avatar wrote:Can we drop this debate? Nothing good can/will come of it and you're both just getting annoyed at each other.


I don't see why the initial point that Kingdom of One raised needs to be dropped just because Lujo textwalled a ton. I was merely pointing out how Lujo's view is not the only one, nor is it overly inclusive. We really didn't need loads of text confirming that and turning another thread into an echo chamber :)
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby The Avatar on Mon May 27, 2013 1:33 am

Kingdom of One's original point (as I understand it) was that it doesn't make sense to have to scum for veto (and locker too, I guess) items to put in slots. This is the classic why do we have to scum/can we have a vault argument. We've had this before and it comes to nothing but angry people. Seeing as no one appears to have changed their beliefs on this topic I fail to see how anything but more angry people can result from an effectively identical discussion.
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Lujo on Mon May 27, 2013 7:59 am

dislekcia wrote:I don't see why the initial point that Kingdom of One raised needs to be dropped just because Lujo textwalled a ton.


Kingdom of One wrote: I'm not sure why they require you to have the item you want to veto though - it seems like when you finally know what you want to veto then you have an annoying additional task of going to find it (which may not take that long but probably won't be all that enjoyable).


Kingdom of One wrote:I guess I won't mention the idea this brings up of a 'workshop' building - that collects all items you leave the dungeon with and once you have 10 or so of one you can make them (for a price) to add to your locker/veto slots indefinitely - then.


The Avatar wrote:Kingdom of One's original point (as I understand it) was that it doesn't make sense to have to scum for veto (and locker too, I guess) items to put in slots. This is the classic why do we have to scum/can we have a vault argument. We've had this before and it comes to nothing but angry people. Seeing as no one appears to have changed their beliefs on this topic I fail to see how anything but more angry people can result from an effectively identical discussion.


Lujo wrote:There's a whole lot of folks I haven't seen posting since the last time we all grouped up and brought the issue to the forefront with the lockers.

And back there I've seen people who despize textwalls and only rarely ever post chime in with textwalls trying to get the point across. It was maddening.


We ought to drop it because of what Avatar said.

You didn't win that argument back then, you just stonewalled us until everyone gave up. I suicided, most other people involved just dropped forum activities to minimum/zero (for whatever reasons, but I know for a fact a bunch just couldn't bring themselves to keep participating, the game might bring them back though). And I like all the new posters and that the forums are lively again, but you cant give them what we got back then because it was just ugly. If you didn't change your stance on this, nothing good is likely to come off it.

And if you've changed your stance on the issue, there's no need to debate it because you've already got something in the works and when you guys get around to do it, the whole thing'll be fixed. It's an interface issue and that's all there should've ever been to it. Sidestepper's first textwall from back then should've been enough.

(The original thread was made by sidestepper, it's called "The horse is not quite dead yet: Locker space and fun" or something like that.)
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Kingdom of One on Mon May 27, 2013 8:58 am

My original original point was that I'd completed half of the gold challenges and wanted to give some feedback on how they felt for me :roll:
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Lujo on Mon May 27, 2013 9:08 am

Planning to do the others soon? I mean, the veto slots are great, really. You'll be glad you've unlocked them once you start getting bored with some items and want to see others more often. Powergaming isn't that important. (And yes, that is the subject to which the thread was supposed to return, sorry for facilitation the unnecessary tangential discussion).
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Kingdom of One on Mon May 27, 2013 10:03 am

No worries - I'm unlikely to try the others for a while but I'll report when I do!

Been spending my time in Naga City and it's proving much more troublesome than the Dragon and Vampire unlock dungeons. I've a feeling it requires a different approach to my normal play-style. It's great!

[EDIT: Just thought I'd add that it appears to be teaching the skills that I'd asked for in an extra 'switching between multiple gods' set of puzzles from a previous post. I've also now finally prepped an altar :lol:.]
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