First 8 gold challenges.

[Lujo]

[The Avatar]

Okay, I can think of only one way to settle this so Lujo and dislekcia will stop arguing. Have the devs implement a free fill your lockers and vetoes. Then see what people do. Are they constantly using the feature to do fun experiments or to do scummy runs? Frankly, either of you could be right (it could remove all scumming or add more) so beyond it being a pain to make, why not try it?

[Lujo]

As a support to the "lets just fricikng try it out in practice" motion - it's not that hard to make. Make a popup with text entry which checks whether an available item is available in the shop pool whe you type in the name, and a button which lets you just put it in the veto/locker whatever. Shouldn't be that hard to make, the password entry box can be used and so can the list that already checks for shop pool elegiblity. Make it cost 500-1000 per pop so people can't go nuts unless they can win some PQI first (but can actually play runs they want to provide fuel). And if anyone wants to go nuts he'll have to get gold - and the easiest way to get gold is to play the actual game and get better at it...

And we try it out - scummers gonna scumm (people are still scumming for altars instead of prepping them o.O), whoever doesn't want any scumming in his play will pay gladly, and whoever wants to adjust just one item to try it out will have the option of doing whatever the hell he feels like. And everybody who isn't interested will remain blisfullly oblivious.

[berpdreyfuss]

I'm beginning to understand the devs problem with the lockers. It reduces the randomness of a dungeon run. The agument: "I can scum for an item, which will only cost me real life time so I should be able to locker it right away" can be made for other things as well. For example: "I can scum for all of the shops in a dungeon having just the item I want, so I should be able to chose which shops appear in the dungeon" and this point can be made for other things as well.

Is this a valid point, Lujo?

And count me in on the "let's try it, even if it is just for a week" side!

[Lujo]

[berpdreyfuss]

The god prep is a good example for something that prevents scumming in a good way. Maybe there is a similar solution to the locker problem as well.
And though it isn't that, I still wouldn't mind a very late game unlock of the "take any item you want into the dungeon". I don't see a slippery slope problem there ("Why isn't it available earlier?") because until now, for myself, I never felt the need for that unlock and only people who are deep into this game will feel the need for such a feature anyway.

[Lujo]

It doesn't even have to include any items that you can't find in the shops (vicious stuff, subdungeon rewards) - just the stuff people are able to easily scumm up right now with a tinker/transmuter. Heck, it's infinitely easier to veto 7 things by scumming with a transmuter than do 7 challenges to veto the rewards is! You can haul 3-4 out of venture cave at once! It's easier to rig up a perfect pool than to veto/locker just 1 thing! And a whole bunch of stuff is only possible to veto in a time-efficent fashion by scumming for them (elites, basics, map quest items). Who'll ever bring a 50 gp costing Orb of Zot out of a dungeon on a whim so he can veto it? Or Yendor? Just remove the need to scumm for people who don't want to do it, for a week/month and see how it works out! Please! It can't be that much work.

It's just that the "perfect run scumm happy crowd" are having a field day with the whole situation, and people who are the opposite of that but still want to check weird combo's out and have fun on the runs are forced into scumming... And if you really resoultely refuse to scum - low range of items used /vetoed on a regular basis for you (And you get accused of victim mentality to add insult to injury).

[dislekcia]

[dislekcia]

[Bloggorus]

1st rule of moderating forums: don't feed the trolls.