Scapegoats and Holy Divers

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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby gjaustin on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:46 pm

Ooh, this sounds really cool!

I wonder how he'd do on VGT?
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Lujo on Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:02 pm

He'd be... interesting :D

I've just reread the post, and I'm thinking - I whish some of this stuff had it's own tokens similar to the vicious one...

And the food thing should deffinitely bring the "roguelike" aspect of DD to the forefront. I think I'd love a playthrough with the damned feature on at all times for all classes regardless of balance.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Nandrew on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:23 pm

Darvin wrote:Hmmm... sounds like Jehora Jeheyu will be a nightmare for the new guy. JJ has always been potentially game-ending if used without careful planning. With his vulnerability to mana burn and poison, no control over when you join or leave his religion, and alpha-vampire-like exploration mechanic that makes life drain and mana burn even more devastating than they usually are, it sounds like JJ is going to be intensely frustrating for him.


I can only tell you that, as a percentage, JJ's minor punishments actually become *less* of a big deal.

In some scenarios, poison / manaburn is just an ever-present problem. When JJ slams you with one more, you can roll with the punches and duke it out with a nearby serpent.

Not saying it doesn't makes life strictly more difficult, mind you. But then there's the occasional windfall situation with JJ I've found myself in. :P

Strangely enough, I have not yet had much play with B2P. I always find it too early and end up converting it quickly for an emergency refill.

My reasoning: from playtesting so far, early game is ALWAYS food-scarce. You'd eat your own grandmother if it would help you uncover a few more critical tiles.

Buuut ... depending on the map layout (constricted dungeons are less starvation-prone) and subdungeons (yeah, secret monsters), the late game can be anywhere from food-scarce to food-abundant. B2P would basically have variable relevance in that regard, but it would always be late game. It's hard to predict how the end of a session will pan out in terms of rations and I doubt players will ever scum for "good fooding".

That said, I've still experienced startlingly little of the new character. I just find Purist Venture runs so diverse and interesting (and deadly). Can it abuse preps and equipment for harder dungeons? I don't quite know yet, though I've taken care to write custom Diver scripts for Naga City and Gaan-Telet.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Nandrew on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:38 pm

I've climbed down into a rather common subdungeon (free exploration around staircase). I see a dented helm lying diagonally from me. I'm sorely wounded and would benefit greatly from the tiles expended to move over and pick it up, plus obvious item benefits. But I haven't seen any monsters to kill topside and only have 15 food left, so I'm forced to leave it behind for the time being.

Even if I do find an opponent quickly enough, I'm still going to have to consider whether I really need the helmet for THAT fight (eating into my long-term food supplies) or if I can prevail without it.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby harfatum on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:59 pm

If indeed the character is a scapegoat, can they eat other things besides fallen enemies? Tin cans/their own armor, perhaps?

In any case, this looks like a lot of fun. I do hope that with skillful play, all the dungeons are beatable with the new class.
Have a mug of tea.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Darvin on Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:06 pm

In some scenarios, poison / manaburn is just an ever-present problem. When JJ slams you with one more, you can roll with the punches and duke it out with a nearby serpent.

The big difference is that you can control these things with a serpent or wraith, and can avoid them with careful glyph use. With JJ, you can't control the timing. However, the status ailment isn't the biggest problem; the health drain and mana drain effects are far more insidious here.

But then there's the occasional windfall situation with JJ I've found myself in.

The ability to grab boost mana (and possibly boost health) and then get out without having to pay the petition tax is very powerful. JJ would definitely be a windfall if he appears early. If he appears late and smacks you with a health drain or mana burn during the boss battle, that could be a game-ender.

Strangely enough, I have not yet had much play with B2P. I always find it too early and end up converting it quickly for an emergency refill.

As I said, its value depends on how it interacts with food. If it doesn't eat food, then using BLUDTUPOWA is a great way to get exploration done without depleting resources. If it does eat food, it's going to be exceedingly difficult to use effectively.

I see a dented helm lying diagonally from me

The dented helmet is a fairly mediocre item, so yeah I can definitely see leaving it alone. It's a very slight benefit, basically only worthwhile if it lets you hit a specific threshold, and rarely worth the inventory space IMO. I often leave it alone with regular classes because the item is less valuable than the small amount of blackspace surrounding it, and convert it more often than not when I do grab it.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Nandrew on Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:42 pm

JJ can generally be a windfall at any point.

The math is weighed so that JJ's first bunch of rolls are heavily favourable towards the player. It is more than possible to grab the 20 piety necessary from scratch, no matter your level. But it's also extremely difficult to encounter a god ONLY late game, since the standard 3 altar loadout probably means that each god will be picked once in each phase of the game (okay, just averages). The Pactmaker is never explicitly picked, so sometimes there's a dangerous ping-pong between the two remaining gods -- I once had GG and Dracul staring each other down.

So I've now confirmed B2P actually does avoid food costs. That should be an interesting avenue. I'll try save it next time.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Kingdom of One on Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:54 pm

I wonder how Namtar's Lair going to play out regarding food? It has a huge required tile to monster ratio.
Would be funny if it's only doable with LEMMISI/WEYTWUT combo.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Nandrew on Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:35 pm

Kingdom of One wrote:I wonder how Namtar's Lair going to play out regarding food? It has a huge required tile to monster ratio.
Would be funny if it's only doable with LEMMISI/WEYTWUT combo.


Was considering that one too! I think players will be forced to make sacrifices to stretch out their food budgets in clever ways, but I feel it actually can be done with a fully-prepared character.
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Re: Scapegoats and Holy Divers

Postby Fran on Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:57 pm

I'm not really enthusiastic about the class, to be honest. Basically, what you're describing is a new set of draconian rules which will surely benefit the vets thirst for challenge, but at the same time, the class sounds pretty unplayable to anyone who isn't really good at the game and doesn't quite knows what he's doing. There doesn't even seem to be any positive class feature the class could actually use as an advantage.

My point is that as someone being mediocre at the game, I feel locked out of the bonus content if its only catered towards the vets' need for challenge, as it seems to do. I'm not mad at you or anything, I'm still glad I supported you by buying the special edition and would do it again, but making the class work differently without making it work much more difficult would've been much more fitting, at least in my opinion. I feel like a token which brings the foodsystem and underlying rules would've been a better idea.

Just my 2ct.
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