"Spike" definition ?

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Re: "Spike" definition ?

Postby Lujo on Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:11 pm

dislekcia wrote:If saying "Yeah, then I spiked the boss" doesn't accurately describe what happened and could actually cover a million different scenarios, what's the point?


Well, that's true in fact - but it was developed to understand the game better. We were looking for a system of clasification because... well, we didn't really have one. How to convey that you use a ton of dp/dogde equivalents, focus your game towards obtaining them and then use them to kill the boss? There's like five different sources of those! Or to say, then I dropped everything and unloaded on a boss? I was going for a potion spike, DP spike, taurog's spike, fireball spike is sort of just shorter.

Or for your overall goal - what you hoarding potions for? I'll spike the boss? How'd you deal with all the red djinns? Potion spike this guy, DP spike that guy, level catapulted that other guy... Tried to EM spike the 4th guy, ran out of fuel, switched to drac... You know, shorthand.

Playing the game is mostly preparing for a spike. Storing up resources (piety, popcorn, CP, buffs, damage, health, potions whathave you). Spike is when you translate those into damage.

Plus there were a few things that didn't fit into classifications we had before - I was having a hell of a time trying to explain TT's potion spike before I could just write TT's potion spike. Then it was easy to understand that it's a bossfight plan simmilar to any other. It's fueled by TT piety, health potions and bloody popcorn of all things, if you don't have the concepts of spike and fuel floating around it's difficult to even talk about it...

flap wrote:Yeah... But as players, do we know all the dev based nomenclature ?


We had no clue, they always wanted us to discover things on our own. But then we needed a system to classify general concepts. Explaining, say, gods without proper nomenclature (or even understanding them) is rather tricky. Once you know that each has a "spike" boon you get a lot more comfortable with them.

Darvin wrote:Regen-fighting is more on the efficiency-side of things


Except when you're past a certain point of efficency, say with a max resists monk and nice damage. Then you're pretty much throwing blackspace at the boss. But yes, "the blackspace spike" concept is rather academic.

The most extreme "sacrifice efficcency for burst" would be the DP/Dodge spike Rogue, who by default gains nothing by exploring and only looks to win one fight, but the ammount of burst he can produce during the fight is strong enough to kill a boss at lvl1. He can't possibly regain any invested resources, he throws away a ton from the get go, looking only for money, damage and DP's/Dodges.
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Re: "Spike" definition ?

Postby Darvin on Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:31 pm

Lujo wrote:
flap wrote:Yeah... But as players, do we know all the dev based nomenclature ?


We had no clue, they always wanted us to discover things on our own. But then we needed a system to classify general concepts. Explaining, say, gods without proper nomenclature (or even understanding them) is rather tricky. Once you know that each has a "spike" boon you get a lot more comfortable with them.

The devs have adopted some of our own nomenclature. The term "popcorn", for instance, to refer to low-level monsters fit for easy consumption. I'm still hoping to see an in-game reference to salted popcorn (slowed monsters).


Except when you're past a certain point of efficency, say with a max resists monk and nice damage. Then you're pretty much throwing blackspace at the boss.

To point is that both you and the boss are healing, but due to your high efficiency you're getting the better side of this deal. Hence why I distinguish that from a spike where you overpower the creature with a single barrage with no time for regeneration.

Regen-fighting is definitely an entire category unto itself, and I'd classify poison along with it.
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Re: "Spike" definition ?

Postby Lujo on Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:36 pm

Darvin wrote:
Lujo wrote:
flap wrote:Yeah... But as players, do we know all the dev based nomenclature ?


We had no clue, they always wanted us to discover things on our own. But then we needed a system to classify general concepts. Explaining, say, gods without proper nomenclature (or even understanding them) is rather tricky. Once you know that each has a "spike" boon you get a lot more comfortable with them.

The devs have adopted some of our own nomenclature. The term "popcorn", for instance, to refer to low-level monsters fit for easy consumption. I'm still hoping to see an in-game reference to salted popcorn (slowed monsters).


Exactly :D No need to adopt "spike", though, it's too... scientific... immersion-breaking... gamey... It's there for when you want to say you spent resources to kill something tough instead of hoarding them or imply you focused mostly on one type of resource to deal with a/the boss. Or to explain a particular boon is what you kill stuff with (and possibly how) when talking about a god... Or even to explain a race and class in shrt (he's a potion spiker!).

Darvin wrote:
Except when you're past a certain point of efficency, say with a max resists monk and nice damage. Then you're pretty much throwing blackspace at the boss.

To point is that both you and the boss are healing, but due to your high efficiency you're getting the better side of this deal. Hence why I distinguish that from a spike where you overpower the creature with a single barrage with no time for regeneration.

Regen-fighting is definitely an entire category unto itself, and I'd classify poison along with it.


Yeah, that's why I write about it as regen fighting not blackspace spike. The term just came to me one day when I realized that a regen fighter has that breaking point when you know you can ignore everything and just "recklessly" blow all the blackspace you've been conserving.

Poison is in the same category as regen fighting in my book (it's a regen fighting tool, a rather strong one historically :D)
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Re: "Spike" definition ?

Postby flap on Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:08 pm

"salted popcorn", I like it.
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Re: "Spike" definition ?

Postby FDru on Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:20 am

Buttered popcorn is better. I mean, the butter has salt in it anyway.
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Re: "Spike" definition ?

Postby flap on Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:32 am

FDru wrote:Buttered popcorn is better. I mean, the butter has salt in it anyway.

Ah, I can see the whole new and high level debate there. I don't know how it is in your countries, but at least in France, you have whole regions where salted butter is an heresy, while others would not stand buying un-salted ones...

Back to the "spike" definition, would a tanking strategy (for example stack resistance to endure a lot of damages) be part of the "spike" startegies ?

If we follow Lujo's interresting vision, spiking is related to the important use of ressources. Apparently in Disleksia's mind, and maybe Avatar's one, it is finding ways to indulge high damages (and maybe with few hits). Well, at least that's how I understood it initially. So regen-fighting, tanking and spiking would be 3 different things. (In Lujo's vision, spiking would gather these 3 strategies. Maybe the "spiking" being renamed "Striking").
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Re: "Spike" definition ?

Postby FDru on Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:25 pm

Well I would consider spiking to be simply expending a not-insignificant amount of resources to do a lot of damage in a short amount of time (like Reflex + Dodge + Strength potion damage spikes) or sailing through several levels at once.

So you have level spiking and damage spiking, but everything else is more or less normal progressive play and doesn't count as spiking. Or else it just gets confusing...
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Re: "Spike" definition ?

Postby Lujo on Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:47 pm

^ Agreed :) (what's below is not confusing, I hope, even though it's a bit long)

"Spiking" and "Striking", are two different things. This might be what's confusing Dislekcia about it - Spiking is a game phase. It describes a time period (potion spike = time I stop hording them and turn them into damage). Thinking in terms of efficency and spiking helped me look at the game as a whole. There are basicaly 2 phases in the game:

- "The setup" - where you scout, gather piety, slow monsters, convert stuff, stack stable buffs (resists, damage, mana), explore, move monsters around, set up for whatever.
- "The execution" - ("Spike" for short) which is when you turn resources into damage. You have small ones for leveling, and big one for the boss fight. If you're efficcent enough you only truly spike for the boss fight (if even then).

But the spike can include many different actions: munching popcorn for a level up, converting for piety, casting buffs, regenerating either health or mana while the fight goes on, picking up boons... Striking implies the act of doing damage, the spike is rather a phase where your actions are guided towards damage on the boss (or whatever) rather than setup (because you have the whole resource fund / transformation plan set up at that point).

But both setup and spike are part of every run. You don't have to be a "spiker" to spike - even tanks spike at some point, it's just that their efficency is high enough that they don't burn as much resources as others do. A resist stacker makes his health "worth" more, translate into damage better, a healthmonster gets more health to get more damage at a worse "conversion rate". So the resistance stacker is more about efficcency, and a healthmonster is more about overwhelming and obstacle by throwing health at it.

The reason I originaly came up with it (though I didn't invent the term "spike") was because DD has a ton of features. Learning about them one by one and thinking of them as stuff that you need to learn individually was giving me trouble because it created fake "comfort" zones where I'd feel comfortable with a class but uncomfortable with another class which plays in a very simmilar fashion. Or I just feel overwhelmed. Understanding that whatever you play the game plays along the same lines as long as you can clearly see your objectives helped. "Kill the boss" is too general, "What can this class go for?", "What's this race good for?", "How does this god help me explore/level/kill the boss?", "What level do I start the boss fight at (when do I spike?)", "What is the least number of resource types I need to pay attention to?" whish leads to the very important:

"What's my endgame with this race+class+badge setup?". I played a LOT od PQI. You need to understand what a god is good for, what a god is bad for and exactly how a god helps you kill something. And what sinergizes with it. So when PQI requirements cut you off from stuff, you can bypass it with a god, but you need to know what PQI cut you off from. Parched Halfling = no potion spike. My CP and potions are denied. How the devil do I spike? GG piety spike uses potions and CP as fuel - ha, gotcha! Elf Monk? My human/orc damage boost is denied, but I'll have a mana pool, which gods have a mana spike? Mystera, or EM! Miser fighter, no shops to boost my blandish class features and nothing to spend gold on? Prep crystal ball and TT, dump gold into help for the XP spike (and a use for health potions :) )

I also played a ton of endurance runs (VGT and NC). How to understand when and why to join / convert out of a god? Why leave a piety farm? Because he/she doesn't help you with the spike you're looking for. Why join Drac last? Because he needs remarkably little setup - get piety with Taurog, stack up your resists to get your health worth more, convert and spike like a boss. Why stick with Binlor to the end? Because he has a health spike in Stoneskin! Why leave JJ eventually? He's more setup than spike. When can you ride Mystera for the whole game? When your only plan is a mana spike anyway and everything she has helps...

It's just a way of clearly looking at resource management with the end game in mind. "Spike" and "Spiker" doesn't mean anything very specific by itself, it's just part of a graph. It's how you plan to cause it, or even being aware of all your options and their sinergies that gives it meaning.

Q: "For reason whatever I'll have an excess of A, what allows me to turn that into damage?"
A: "Whatever uses A to fuel a spike, or helps a spike fueled by A."

So the term is more useful as a plan, a method. An "X spiker" = someone who prioritizes fuel/setup for X spike during prep/setup time or has an easy time setting one up for execution. Or even no choice but use it. It's only an action in the after-action report :D
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Re: "Spike" definition ?

Postby dislekcia on Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:14 pm

Spike still doesn't sound useful. We never designed around the term or the concept. And it feels like the superfluous "saga" added to the end of all of King.com's games - there for recognition more than anything else.

Contrast the superfluous -spike suffix to -stacking. Stacking is simply collecting, but as there are many different things to collect, that's a useful term to have differentiators for: Dodge-stacking, DP-stacking, Burning-stacking, Poison-stacking, Resist-stacking, CP-stacking, etc.

flap wrote:So what is a spike for you dislekcia ? (And do devs actually spike ?)


Apparently just playing the game is always some form of spike. So, yeah, we probably do when we play, we just don't think of things that way. Gods certainly don't each have a "spike" by design because that's not a concept that's meaningful to us. They each have different angles of efficiency and tradeoffs though.

flap wrote:Yeah... But as players, do we know all the dev based nomenclature ?


A lot of the game's vocabulary was built up by players coming up with things and talking to us about them as we worked on it. We used to have a different name for level-cannoning, but the community name has replaced it. We also know all of the game, so we call things by what they're actually named because that's meaningful to us ;) We only really generalise across specific things like map generation feelings or debuff types.

There's a bunch of terms that we used daily on DD that would mean nothing to players. Why would y'all care what a handler is or why an event is simulated or regular, for instance?
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Re: "Spike" definition ?

Postby Darvin on Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:24 pm

dislekcia wrote:Spike still doesn't sound useful. We never designed around the term or the concept.

And yet, you can feel it in-game. Think of a Warlord against Bleaty; between CYDSTEPP and GETINDARE he can be assured three free attacks, enough to be within shooting distance of a KO. Then think of that same Warlord against SMM; no matter how much mana/potions he gets for consecutive DP's, he's not going to get through all those hit points and needs to change his approach. Alternately, a Paladin will have significant trouble just surviving a hit from Bleaty, but has no problems wearing down low-damage SMM with attrition strategies.
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