Goblins...?

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Re: Goblins...?

Postby The Avatar on Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:35 pm

These could be elite items...
Wand of Unlimited Fury: Mana burn and double attack (Consumable)
Rod of Spellburst: Mana burn, deals 1 damage per level per mp to target. (Consumable)
Shockwave Scepter: Stuns all monsters slowing them and reducing their resistances to 0. (Consumable)

Not just wands, scepters and rods too!
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Alweth on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:07 am

pRaz wrote:I think rolling Tri-Sword back to +2 damage would be fine; that would put it more on-par with the Gnome/Whargarbl Wizard/Sorceror combo - that is, it would still be great, but you wouldn't immediately rush for Halfling Berserker/Warlord any time you know the boss won't be physical-resistant.


That doesn't do anything to make Tri-sword useful for races other than Halfling--in fact, it makes it less useful. And Tri-lings would still blow Orcs out of the water for base damage from conversion, although less so.

The permanent extra bonus from potions formula is just problematic because one race gets so much more from it. It's even worse when the bonus has synergy with the potion, like +base damage and health. At least there's no particular synergy between mana potions and +bonus damage, but the Whurgblebarg sword still has the same fundamental problem.

The Tri-sword needs to be decoupled from health potions. If it were attached to conversion, then it could be balanced, because every race could take advantage of it. In fact, it would power up Elves and promote new interesting strategies with them.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Darvin on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:26 am

between mana potions and +bonus damage

Warlords and Paladins...

The Tri-sword needs to be decoupled from health potions. If it were attached to conversion, then it could be balanced, because every race could take advantage of it. In fact, it would power up Elves and promote new interesting strategies with them.

This would be too powerful, even if it were only +1 per conversion. For instance, an elf who converts 350 conversion points will have 5 extra points of mana and 5 extra base attack using a trisword. An orc with 360 conversion points will have 6 base attack from his racial bonus, or 9 with a trisword. It's not until around 600 conversion points that an orc decisively pulls ahead of an elf, and by this point the elf has built up a whopping 8 extra MP in addition to the attack he's getting from the trisword.

Too powerful on races with low conversion multipliers, this absolutely cannot be done.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Hammerfan on Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:46 am

Linking the Trisowrd to conversion could work, but it would have to be a seperate counter from the racial bonus.

What I mean is that the Trisword could increase its damage every X conversion points regardless of race.
So if you are an elf with 15 conversion points, converting a Troll heart will increase your mane, but you need 20 more conversion points to get the increase in Trisword damage.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby The Avatar on Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:17 pm

How about every 100-120 points. Like being a half-orc.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Gorgon on Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:53 pm

If it gets 1 base damage per conversion, it will become a deadly weapon for vampires. They would become even more dependent and specific.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Alweth on Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:11 pm

Darvin wrote:
between mana potions and +bonus damage

Warlords and Paladins...


I am talking about inherent synergy between mana potions and +bonus damage, not what some specific classes can do with them. Just about the only thing that +bonus damage affects is attacking, no spells. However, when you attack, frequently you're going to get hit back by an enemy, causing you to lose health. Thus there is inherent synergy between +base damage and health potions.

Darvin wrote:
The Tri-sword needs to be decoupled from health potions. If it were attached to conversion, then it could be balanced, because every race could take advantage of it. In fact, it would power up Elves and promote new interesting strategies with them.

This would be too powerful, even if it were only +1 per conversion. For instance, an elf who converts 350 conversion points will have 5 extra points of mana and 5 extra base attack using a trisword. An orc with 360 conversion points will have 6 base attack from his racial bonus, or 9 with a trisword. It's not until around 600 conversion points that an orc decisively pulls ahead of an elf, and by this point the elf has built up a whopping 8 extra MP in addition to the attack he's getting from the trisword.

Too powerful on races with low conversion multipliers, this absolutely cannot be done.


By my calculations, the orc decisively passes the elf at only 480 conversion points, without the Tri-sword. You say this absolutely cannot be done, yet as things are currently, the orc requires 1080(!) conversion points to pass the triling, and that's not even taking additional base damage from other potions into consideration. So it would still be a huge improvement over the current situation.

Nevertheless, you may be right that it's imbalanced. But that's not a huge problem. If elves get better because of the Tri-sword, they don't have to stay at 70 conversion points. Alternatively, the swords can give less than 1 point of damage per conversion. There are, of course, other options.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby pRaz on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:46 pm

Hammerfan wrote:Linking the Trisowrd to conversion could work, but it would have to be a seperate counter from the racial bonus.


That would introduce an entirely new mechanic - tracking CP for individual items - and I don't think that's a great idea, at least not for now. If they do "expansion packs" after release, maybe they could get into more complicated territory like that.

Speaking of potions... the Bloodmage just doesn't sit right with me. Needing to have so much Health merely to even drink a Mana potion at high levels is too much of a downside for a not fantastic benefit. I think it would be more interesting to have BLUDTOPOWA toggle between using Health(x2) or Mana for casting, and have Mana potions work normally but Health potions be half as effective. For a quicker fix, have drinking a Mana potion remove a % of max health.
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby Gorgon on Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:24 pm

I don't think blood mages are underpowered, you are just not using their bonuses the right way. A gnome blood mage with mage plate and JJ (the only reliable god for mages right now) could get up to 36 MP at level 8 and and still have 6 potions remaining. It would be able to get 42 casts, and the loss of HP with each MP potion can be covered by HP potions and their ability to drink blood pools. 42 fireball casts would deal 1344 damage at lvl 8 and 1680 damage at lvl 10.

An elf blood mage could get 42 MP at level 10 with this strategy and have 1 remaining potion, then buy a keg of mana and get 4 potions. It would be possible to get 35 casts and chaos avatar, wich is useful for fighting enemies with high defense. 35 casts at lvl 10 would deal 1400 damage.

Blood mages are hard to level up with, because of their lack of resources to fight high level monsters. This is the advantage of using an elf ;)
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Re: Goblins...?

Postby pRaz on Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:46 pm

Gorgon wrote:I don't think blood mages are underpowered, you are just not using their bonuses the right way. A gnome blood mage with mage plate and JJ (the only reliable god for mages right now) could get up to 36 MP at level 8 and and still have 6 potions remaining. It would be able to get 42 casts, and the loss of HP with each MP potion can be covered by HP potions and their ability to drink blood pools. 42 fireball casts would deal 1344 damage at lvl 8 and 1680 damage at lvl 10.

An elf blood mage could get 42 MP at level 10 with this strategy and have 1 remaining potion, then buy a keg of mana


I've never seen Mage Plate or a Keg of Mana (remember, not all of us have been playing the beta as long as you guys :D ) so maybe the issue is more that Bloodmages are not that great in the early-mid game.
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