Boost Mana

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Boost Mana

Postby Darvin on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:48 am

It's well known that there is a problem with gnomes (and thieves, for that matter) and Jehora Jeheyu, and the following table shows why:

Code: Select all
      4    5    6    7    8    9
14   20   25   30   35   40   45
18   21   28   35   42   49   56
22   16   24   32   40   48   56
26   10   20   30   40   50   60
30    0   12   24   36   48   60


The columns indicate how many mana potions (or total potions, if you're a thief) you have in total, while the rows indicate how max mana increases with each use of Jehora's "Boost Mana" boon. I've found that raising max mana one point is critical for anyone boosting with Jehora to avoid rounding issues with their potions, hence why 14 is my base (there are lots of ways to achieve this, easiest being preparing patches and converting him after he grants you 1 MP). The fields themselves are how much mana you'd gain by chugging all your potions.

As we can see, characters with 4 mana potions (ie, non-gnomes, non-thieves) get a significant dropoff after the first hit, and pay a fair price for boosting their mana. However, with each additional potion you acquire the dropoff flattens out, and a character who has a keg of mana at their disposal basically has no dropoff whatsoever. Once we push into gnome/thief territory, the dropoff is gone; boost mana improves the effectiveness of the rest of your potions by such a significant margin that you end up with more potion power, not less, regardless of how many times you make this trade. With a schadenfreude prep, the dynamic changes somewhat but gnomes are still in the stratosphere compared to everyone else.

I don't know what the solution is. Just nerfing the boon won't deal with the fact that it's quite modest for characters with lower numbers of potions. However, it's so powerful in its current incarnation that it cannot be allowed to stand as is. It'd be nice if the boon was changed to be more appealing to a wider variety of characters, but short of changing what its drawback is I don't see how that' s possible.


I'd like to add that we currently have too few deities that can boost your mana. With the removal of Dracul's blood power, the Glowing Guardian (enlightenment), Mystera (magic), and Jehora Jeheyu (boost mana) are your only three options. However, the tradeoff from Mystera is too steep for most characters to seriously consider it, and Enlightenment is way too expensive if all you're interested in is mana. This leaves Jehora as our only decent mana booster in the current version. While no one expects Taurog to have offerings for spellcasters, the options for a caster right now are so slim as to be non-existant outside of Jehora.

I'd also state that the health potion boon is not comparable to the mana one, since the benefit is only large for low-level characters (when you aren't using potions anyways), and at higher levels is used pretty much exclusively to survive high-damage enemies that would otherwise 1-hit you. Although halflings are still advantaged here, it isn't a serious issue like gnomes are to the mana potions. If anything it's a little on the weak side right now.
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Re: Boost Mana

Postby The Avatar on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:57 am

How about making it give you poison/mana immunity. Once off of course. Perhaps +2 health per level and... Ugh... mana isn't scaling. How about creating another glyph?
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Re: Boost Mana

Postby Darvin on Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:07 am

If any deity is going to create glyphs, it should be Mystera.

Not a fan of your other suggestions. I don't think that boost health needs major changes; because a small non-scaling boost can allow you to survive one attack that would otherwise kill you, I don't think it needs to scale with levels. Similarly, poison/mana burn immunity is kinda random.


I think this boon should be improving max mana; we need boons like that. The problem is, as it exists right now, it's too good for people who can acquire more than 7 mana potions, which is child's play for thieves and gnomes.
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Re: Boost Mana

Postby The Avatar on Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:14 am

That will always be a problem as long as you're using potions to do it. Even if you don't use it'll still be a problem.

I think boost health should be stacking, as long as it uses a potion, cause then it'll either be too god at level 1 or to bad at level 10.
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Re: Boost Mana

Postby q 3 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:56 am

Swap the costs: have the +MP boon destroy one health potion, and the +HP boon destroy one mana potion. Gnomes still really like the +MP boon, but now other races can take advantage of it without a keg of mana. (Also: it's even more chaotic that way.) Probably would need to reduce it back down to +2 MP, though; the +HP can stay the same, or perhaps change it to +2 or +3 bonus HP.

A big part of the reason why it's been so hard to balance +MP boons, in my opinion, is that Gnomes are far too powerful. Bump their conversion cost up to 90 or maybe even back to 100, and they're somewhat less likely to break the game. (That, or there aren't enough alternative ways of getting % based MP restoration; other than buying mana potions or a keg of mana, there's GG's Protection which is expensive if all you want is MP and was recently nerfed, and Mystera's restoration boon which is useless mid-fight. % HP restoration has a few more options, including Blood Swell, bloodpools, and the overheal effect [from lifesteal or Pactmaker]. Until Elves have a viable substitute for mana potions, or a reliable means of obtaining extra potions, Gnomes will nearly always be superior outside of a few peculiar strategies and/or classes.)
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Re: Boost Mana

Postby Darvin on Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:05 am

Actually, there's one major %-based mana restore that you've missed: leveling up. If you can set up a sufficiently long XP catapult (and Jehora isn't around to turn gnomes into spellcasting gods) the elf will still overtake the gnome. I find Paladins of Glowing Guardian and Bloodmages (which can run into HP issues with the gnome) also work nicely for elves. However, the gnome is definitely the superior race between the two in the vast majority of scenarios in the current version.
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Re: Boost Mana

Postby TigerKnee on Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:25 am

100 points for 2 mana Elves supremacy!

Just kidding, but drop the conversion rate for Elves a bit!
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Re: Boost Mana

Postby Darvin on Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:50 am

2 mana for 110 sounds about right to me.
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Re: Boost Mana

Postby Gorgon on Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:54 am

I don't think JJ is that overpowered, he just seems overpowered because he is the only god with the ability to easily boost your MP. Glowing Guardian requires 100 piety for 2 MP. Mystera raises enemy resistances (She would be useable if her Lower resists were not so expensive).

The cost for his mana/health boost should be lowered to 20+20. Boost mana should be +3 MP instead. Then you would need 4 mana potions and more piety to get 25 MP.

Of course, it would still benefit gnomes and halflings the most, but anything that deals with potions works best with halflings/gnomes.

And for elves, 1 MP for 60 CP would be nice.
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Re: Boost Mana

Postby The Avatar on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:34 pm

I personally like the suggestion of making boost mana need an hp potion. But Gorgon's solution sounds good too.
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